The Barclays Premier League Thread 2013/14

[Colly]

The charges are deserved. You can't forbid one cross-section of the population for using a word and allow the rest to say it. Spurs fans have no right to use the word then complain when others use it. It's all or nothing.

I mean, it's obviously very unlikely that the Spurs fans are using it for anti-Semitic reasons, but I don't want to live in a society where part of the population is allowed to use a word that is forbidden to the rest.

That's fairly elementary reasoning.

That's asinine. Stop trolling. It is still OK for black people to call each other N(egrito) - you can't tell a group of people you aren't a part of what they are and are not allowed to be offended by.

Can you imagine a football crowd chanting a positive N word chant? The club would be playing in front of empty seats within two weeks.

[Gazz]

That would explain all the empty seats at the Unwashed's stadium.

[Plubby]

It's not trolling.

In a civilised legal system, all of society, regardless of background, must be treated equally. My god it's so simple I don't understand why you don't get it. My point isn't about what is offensive. It's that people have to be treated equally.

Read "The Q Word" by David Thomas. Or "A Queer Revoution" by Robin Brontsema.

I do get it. Maybe you don't quite get it the same way. You are quite simply incorrect in your assertion that all you need to do is treat people equally. This is a concept (and it's not a new concept) called substantive equality, and has replaced the frankly antiquated true equality process that you're babbling about. In order for people to receive equal outcomes, you need to be prepared to treat them differently.

Put simply: If I go to access a service - say I want to buy a house, and I go to a mortgage broker. I have the deposit, and I meet the prerequisites. They give me some brochures/reading material to go away and read, and I read it and maybe I come back and use their services. Next customer comes in. They have the deposit, and they meet the prerequsities. They get some info to go away and read, but they don't read English. Well, fuck. This customer is being discriminated against, but people like yourself will bleat "BUT I TREATED THEM EQUALLY HOW CAN I BE WRONG" and never understand or take responsibility for the hurt that they're causing people.

[Colly]

That still doesn't really justify Spurs fans chanting a racial obscenity in a modern stadium setting full of kids though.

[METALMAN]

No, Plubs, don't make such ridiculous assumptions, You don't get it at a "significantly higher level" than I do. Don't bother attempting to intimidate me away from the debate. I have a first class degree in Law, in which I spent a great deal of time on the underlying theory of the criminal justice system. I get it.

Substantive equality does exist in the legal system. In deciding whether to prosecute, the CPS will consider a variety of circumstances, such as the background of the accused and the effect of their actions on society. That's why you see similar crimes having different punishments meted out. But substantive equality isn't everything. People need to have an understanding of what issues permitted and what isn't. That's why absolute equality isn't, as you say, antiquated. Without it, the principles of deterrence and fair labelling go out of the window.

I, along with prosecutors with several years of experience, have looked at the facts of the incident and decided that the actions of these Tottenham fans are harmful to the public. I, along with them, accept that the best way to rid ourselves of these terrible words is allow them to fade away, rather than prolong their use in some vainglorious attempt at reclamation. I'm not saying that can't be contended, but it's what I believe for now. There's plenty of reason to support it.

[Plubby]

Yeah, I removed "higher" from my post because it was arrogant of me to assume.

[METALMAN]

That's fine.

To clarify my point in a more straightforward manner, I don't want to delve into what is offensive or what isn't. I don't have any appreciation of that. I can't comment on the extent to which "yid" is offensive and whether or not it should be illegal.

But the thing is, somebody has decided that saying "yid" is offensive and made illegal.

Nicolas Anelka did the quenelle. I think it's unlikely he meant it in an anti-Semitic way. But in all likelihood he was aware if it's connotations and legal status. As a result he should be punished.

The Spurs fans chanted "yid". Naturally. It's very unlikely that they meant it in an anti-Semitic way. But in all likelihood they were aware of its connotations and legal status. As a result they should be punished.

Issues of substantive equality cease to be of such importance when you are dealing with people who are aware of the legality of their actions. Bearing that in mind, they law should be enforced as it stands without recourse to caveats or mitigating circumstances. I'd say it for Anelka, and I'll say it for the Spurs fans.

That's about it, as concise as I can make it.

Sorry to be a bit of a dick!

[lanky316]

Nicolas Anelka did the quenelle. I think it's unlikely he meant it in an anti-Semitic way.

His best excuse was "I did it to support my friend", who was being hauled over the coals for telling a Jewish journalist he reminded him of gas ovens... How can anyone try and say it was an innocent misunderstanding?.

[MDK]

Nicolas Anelka did the quenelle. I think it's unlikely he meant it in an anti-Semitic way.

His best excuse was "I did it to support my friend", who was being hauled over the coals for telling a Jewish journalist he reminded him of gas ovens... How can anyone try and say it was an innocent misunderstanding?.

It reminds me of Paulo Di Canio saying 'But I'm not a racist, I'm a fascist!'

[brenchill]

"I'm not racist, I just don't like 'em!"

[Nerf]

The charges are deserved. You can't forbid one cross-section of the population for using a word and allow the rest to say it. Spurs fans have no right to use the word then complain when others use it. It's all or nothing.

I mean, it's obviously very unlikely that the Spurs fans are using it for anti-Semitic reasons, but I don't want to live in a society where part of the population is allowed to use a word that is forbidden to the rest.

That's fairly elementary reasoning.

That's asinine. Stop trolling. It is still OK for black people to call each other N(egrito) - you can't tell a group of people you aren't a part of what they are and are not allowed to be offended by.

Except not every Spurs supporter is actually Jewish.

[METALMAN]

Nicolas Anelka did the quenelle. I think it's unlikely he meant it in an anti-Semitic way.

His best excuse was "I did it to support my friend", who was being hauled over the coals for telling a Jewish journalist he reminded him of gas ovens... How can anyone try and say it was an innocent misunderstanding?.

You're taking my point badly out of context here. Look at the rest of the paragraph.

[lanky316]

Nicolas Anelka did the quenelle. I think it's unlikely he meant it in an anti-Semitic way. But in all likelihood he was aware if it's connotations and legal status. As a result he should be punished.

Nope, still entirely correct to highlight that within your statement. If he is doing it in support of his friend because he's getting in trouble over doing it and making quite clearly offensive anti-Semitic comments, the day after he, the gesture and the movements associated with it were highlighted in government statements it is perfectly clear what he means. His own statement points to a strong anti-Semitic opinion and belief in his decision to use it.

[METALMAN]

ffs

[brenchill]

ZzZzZZ

[EddieG]

I bet the majority of Spurs fans that are chanting yid are, like Nerf said, not Jewish.

We have the same issue in Holland, Ajax fans call themselves jews because of a high Jewish population in Amsterdam, but if a fan of any other team calls them a jew they're out of order, when again, a large number of Ajax fans are not jews.

[Blue Rosler]

Can't we all just agree that whether you can say Yid or not, if you are a Spurs fan, chances are you're a Grade A twat?

[Colly]

Apart from Hammy, he's my favourite Jew.

[Blue Rosler]

Mine is probably Claudia Winkleman or Neil Diamond.

[MDK]

Apart from Hammy, he's my favourite Jew.

HEART BREAKER