2013 NFL Season Thread

[Maxx]

Stafford is still one of the best young QBs in the league. Comparing him to Montana or Young would be foolish but it's not like he's Blaine Gabbert either.

That argument also disregards everything that Rice did as nothing more than being a product of those QBs and that's just bullshit.

No, it doesn't. But if you're claiming WRs are great no matter who their QB is, you're crazy. Look at Larry Fitzgerald. There's a reason Randy Moss' best season came with Tom Brady as his QB. There's a reason Steve Smith was thought to be done before Cam Newton came along. Calvin and Jerry Rice are both phenomenal players, but if you think who their QB is doesn't matter, you're absolutely wrong.

[livid]

I never said that it doesn't matter who the QB is. My point was that Stafford isn't a scrub. Is he at the level of Montana or Young? Obviously not but he's one of the better QBs in the league and it's still early in his career.

Beyond that, I think it's ridiculous to entertain this argument because it's comparing an active player with someone who's already done. It's knee-jerk speculation based on a tremendous game.

[Maxx]

The fact that you said its bullshit that the argument disregards everything that Rice did as a product of his QB sort of implies that you think it doesn't matter who the QB is.

Stafford isn't a scrub, but he's nowhere near the level of Montana. That being said, while Rice had a way better QB, Calvin Johnson plays in an much more offensive friendly time, and is the focal point of one of the most pass happy offenses in the league.

Jerry had a better QB, Calvin has a better scheme and situation. So it's sort of a push and I give the edge to Rice simply due to what era he played in.

[Meacon Keaton]

When talking about players from the past, I always find it best to judge them based on what other players in the league were doing at the time. That's why I think Babe Ruth is the greatest ever. During a time when guys were hitting 4 or 5 home runs a season, he was clubbing 40-50-60.

I'm not going to take away what Calvin Johnson has done or is doing, but the league has totally transformed away from what it was when Jerry Rice was playing. It's no coincidence that there was one 5,000 yard passer just ten years ago, and now we have six. I mean, in the last two years combined, Stafford has over 10,000 yards passing. Defensive backs can't be anywhere near as physical as they use to be, and teams are throwing sooooooooo much more than they were 20 years ago.

[livid]

The fact that you said its bullshit that the argument disregards everything that Rice did as a product of his QB sort of implies that you think it doesn't matter who the QB is.

Stafford isn't a scrub, but he's nowhere near the level of Montana. That being said, while Rice had a way better QB, Calvin Johnson plays in an much more offensive friendly time, and is the focal point of one of the most pass happy offenses in the league.

Jerry had a better QB, Calvin has a better scheme and situation. So it's sort of a push and I give the edge to Rice simply due to what era he played in.

It doesn't actually imply that. It implies that the argument is bullshit, which it is because the talent of both the QB and WR go a long way in enhancing the stats for both players. Simply saying "he had this guy!" does nothing because Montana/Young wouldn't have been great without Rice and Rice wouldn't have been great without Montana/Young.

And yeah, I said that Stafford isn't at the same level as Montana. It'd be absurd for anybody to suggest such a thing. Stafford is by no means a bad QB, though, which is what I was saying. He's not a HOFer (yet at least. Like I said, still early) but he's one of the better QBs in the league and isn't even in his prime yet.

But you guys are correct, the biggest thing against Megatron in this conversation is the fact that it's just two different eras of football.

I will say, though, that Rice's success came in spite of his athleticism and Johnson's comes because of it which I find illuminating when discussing who's better at being a WR and not just a physical freak of nature.

[Adam]

Once again Cards' defense comes up with most of the major plays. Some great pressure earned those interceptions, Matt Ryan got demolished in the second half.

[Meacon Keaton]

I don't even think the argument should be "Is Matthew Stafford as good as Montana/Young?" because I think the answer is definitely a "No". But, as I said, in just the last two years, Stafford has 10,000 passing yards. Montana never threw for 4,000 in a season, and Young only did it twice.

[livid]

Right, Stafford's talent (or lack thereof) was a secondary point to illustrate that Johnson's performance isn't somehow more enhanced just because he doesn't have Joe Montana or Steve Young throwing to him.

[Maxx]

So you're saying he wouldn't be any better if Tom Brady was throwing to him?

This is a dumb discussion to be having, Jerry Rice wins because he was at Michael Jordon level of competitive.

[The Heartbreak Kid]

Trying to compare Stafford to Montana/Young is silly. Different QBs, different era's. But I think it is true that a WR is only as good as his QB. So you have to give Matthew Stafford at least a little bit of credit for Calvin Johnson's success. Just based on the fact that Stafford is the guy putting the football at the right place, at the right time for Calvin Johnson to be able to do what he does.

Edited October 28, 2013 by Disturbed

[livid]

So you're saying he wouldn't be any better if Tom Brady was throwing to him?

This is a dumb discussion to be having, Jerry Rice wins because he was at Michael Jordon level of competitive.

Not really, no. Again, we're talking about a QB who is on pace to throw for over 4900 yards for the third straight year (Stafford). That's obviously inflated because of the volume at which the league throws but still, there isn't a whole lot of room for those numbers to get better. If you're arguing if Brady would make the team better, that's a different argument entirely.

[thatshortguy]

Oh, Atlanta. You tied up all of your cap money in splashy, lateral moves (Jackson for Turner, Osi for Abraham) and didn't bother with an offensive line.

Granted they were listed as having one of the most difficult schedules before the season started and you can't assume a third of your offense would be injured, but this is a very poor one-dimensional team right now. The only things that could've helped were settling up the O-Line and getting a healthy, Show on Turf-era Jackson back. Neither of those things are going to happen, so have fun with 4-12, Falcons. I'll see ya next year.

[HC]

Oh, Atlanta. You tied up all of your cap money in splashy, lateral moves (Jackson for Turner, Osi for Abraham) and didn't bother with an offensive line.

Granted they were listed as having one of the most difficult schedules before the season started and you can't assume a third of your offense would be injured, but this is a very poor one-dimensional team right now. The only things that could've helped were settling up the O-Line and getting a healthy, Show on Turf-era Jackson back. Neither of those things are going to happen, so have fun with 4-12, Falcons. I'll see ya next year.

On the bright side, they appear poised for a high pick in a deep draft.

[VerbalPuke]

There may never be a WR as great as Jerry Rice, but Calvin could come close. Rice was great for years, for perspective, Calvin would need to play at a high level until 2023 or so to match Rice's career production. I saw a lot of Rice because he was a favorite of mine growing up (next to Barry Sanders of course), and he was the greatest. He was the physical freak of nature that Calvin is, but he had an unmatched work ethic and was just simply a good football player. That's not to say Calvin isn't a hard worker, just that Rice's workout regime was known for being a step above what most other guys were doing.

That said, Calvin is the best right now, and will continue to be the best. He will go down in history as one of the best, and is good enough to challenge Rice's throne for greatest WR of all-time.

Edit - Something about Calvin that drives me nuts that isn't necessarily his fault....he always seems to get tackled at the one yard line. His TD numbers should be better but he has this weird ability to get tackled just shy of the goal line. It happened twice yesterday, and a ton of times last season.

[livid]

Oh yeah, I definitely think that he could challenge Rice, it's just way too soon to even try to make the argument. So, I thought the correct response was to ridicule it as much as possible.

The one yard line thing with him is awfully strange and I'm not sure how to really explain it other than perhaps his conditioning/stamina isn't as good as it could be or, at the very least, isn't better than the guys chasing him.

[Maxx]

Yeah, it really is bizarre.

[Dan]

The guy is huge, he looks like a tight end to me.

[livid]

Right but Vernon Davis is about as big (slightly shorter) and he doesn't have that issue.

[Meacon Keaton]

Are we talking getting tackled at the one on long pass plays or just in general? It may just have to do with the kind of routes the Lions have him run.

[livid]

Kinda both, really.

I mean, there are times where it happens on long ones (35+) and then others where it's like a 15-20 yard pass.