2011 MLB Season

[sahyder1]

Where can I go for the next week to escape from this Jeter madness? This is just getting silly now. Yankees beat writers are tweeting quote from Jay-Z of all people talkign about Jeter being in the top tier of Yankees.

Has this clown heard of Ruth, Gehrig, Dimaggio and Mantle? That puts him at best on the 3rd tier of Yankees. Heck, he's not even the best Yankee over the course of his own career.

Avoid ESPN, sports talk radio and the local news. Some douchebag on ESPN's radio station here was trying to argue that Jeter is more valuable than Rivera AND one of the 10 greatest players in the history of baseball. I'd argue that he's never been one of the 10 greatest players in the game at any point in his career, but I'm anti-Jeter.

Yeah, this is just beyond ridiculous right now. Biggest reason I couldn't care less about Jeter is because how ridiculously over the top Yankees fan get with him. Jeter was never the best player on the team. He spent few years being at best the 3rd or even 4th best SS in the American League alone (no matter how much Yankees fans want to claim that he was better then Nomar those years). I'd argue that there wasn't a single year in his career where he was the best player on his own team.

Position Players in the American League alone who I would rank ahead of Jeter in the last 15 years in no particular order.

A-Rod

Ortiz

Manny

Vlad

Ichiro

That's just quickly off the top of my head. If I put more thought to it I'd probably come up with more. This is before I even go into mentioning pitchers like Pedro, Halladay and Randy Johnson who had some ridiculous years in the AL.

I already avoid ESPN Radio outside of Mike and Mike but WFAN will need to be avoided for two weeks (good thing I'll be out of the area for a week).

Edited July 9, 2011 by sahyder1

[sahyder1]

Cliff Lee just had a 10 pitch at bat which ended with a homerun off of Tommy Hanson. This guy is just ridiculous.

[naiwf]

Position Players in the American League alone who I would rank ahead of Jeter in the last 15 years in no particular order.

A-Rod

Ortiz

Manny

Vlad

Ichiro

That's just quickly off the top of my head. If I put more thought to it I'd probably come up with more. This is before I even go into mentioning pitchers like Pedro, Halladay and Randy Johnson who had some ridiculous years in the AL.

I already avoid ESPN Radio outside of Mike and Mike but WFAN will need to be avoided for two weeks (good thing I'll be out of the area for a week).

In no particular order, these are just the guys who I can think of who have been better than he has career wise that played the field at some point in the last 15 years.

Bonds, Griffey, Pujols, A-Rod, Vladdy, Frank Thomas, Jeff Bagwell, Manny, Juan Gonzalez, Chipper, Sosa, Ichiro, Piazza, Ripken, Nomar, Eddie Murray, Rickey Henderson, Mattingly, Palmeiro, Tony Gwynn, Wade Boggs, Albert Belle,

Now the pitchers,

Randy Johnson, Clemens, Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Pedro, Cone, Halladay, Mussina, Mo, Johan Santana, Eckersley.

I'm sure there are some others I'm missing or on the fence about (Thome, McGwire, Sheffield) and that doesn't even begin to reference the legends who played in the Pre Jeter era.

[sahyder1]

Position Players in the American League alone who I would rank ahead of Jeter in the last 15 years in no particular order.

A-Rod

Ortiz

Manny

Vlad

Ichiro

That's just quickly off the top of my head. If I put more thought to it I'd probably come up with more. This is before I even go into mentioning pitchers like Pedro, Halladay and Randy Johnson who had some ridiculous years in the AL.

I already avoid ESPN Radio outside of Mike and Mike but WFAN will need to be avoided for two weeks (good thing I'll be out of the area for a week).

In no particular order, these are just the guys who I can think of who have been better than he has career wise that played the field at some point in the last 15 years.

Bonds, Griffey, Pujols, A-Rod, Vladdy, Frank Thomas, Jeff Bagwell, Manny, Juan Gonzalez, Chipper, Sosa, Ichiro, Piazza, Ripken, Nomar, Eddie Murray, Rickey Henderson, Mattingly, Palmeiro, Tony Gwynn, Wade Boggs, Albert Belle,

Now the pitchers,

Randy Johnson, Clemens, Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Pedro, Cone, Halladay, Mussina, Mo, Johan Santana, Eckersley.

I'm sure there are some others I'm missing or on the fence about (Thome, McGwire, Sheffield) and that doesn't even begin to reference the legends who played in the Pre Jeter era.

Yeah, I was just sticking with American League only but I can't argue against anyone on that list. I'd probably put Thome on that list as well. I am going year by year is there seriously a year where Jeter was the best player on his team?

Edited July 9, 2011 by sahyder1

[Meacon Keaton]

Guess it depends on what you mean by 'best player'.

[naiwf]

I think Jeter has been their most consistent clutch performer at times, but that's about as far as I can go. He's never won a batting title or come close to leading the league in any of the power stats or anything like that. In 15 years he's led the league in hits once, runs once and that's it. He's played with guys who have been more important to the team offensively, he's played with guys who have won league wide awards and he's been on the same team as the greatest relief pitcher that ever lived, so it's hard to argue that he's ever been their best or most valuable player unless you want to debate "intangibles".

Edited July 9, 2011 by naiwf

[Meacon Keaton]

Well, in '99, he led the league in hits and hit .349, and had over 100 RBI's. I think Bernie was around .340 and hit over 100 RBI's too. From just using my memory, I think that was Jeter's most productive year offensively. And he followed that up with a very impressive post-season en route to a World Championship. If we're going on just offensive numbers, that would be the year where he'd at least be in consideration for 'best on the team'.

[naiwf]

Well, in '99, he led the league in hits and hit .349, and had over 100 RBI's. I think Bernie was around .340 and hit over 100 RBI's too. From just using my memory, I think that was Jeter's most productive year offensively. And he followed that up with a very impressive post-season en route to a World Championship. If we're going on just offensive numbers, that would be the year where he'd at least be in consideration for 'best on the team'.

Bernie was .342/.435/.536 with 202 hits (591 AB), 116 runs, 28 2B, 6 3B, 25 HR, 115 RBI, 100 walks.

Jeter was .349/.438/.552 with 219 hits (627 AB), 134 runs, 37 2B, 9 3B, 23 HR, 102 RBI, 91 walks.

I guess you could argue he was their best hitter that year, but Mo was 4-3 with a 1.83 ERA, a league leading 45 SV, a 0.884 WHIP and an ERA+ of 260 so it's close. Even if I concede that Jeter was their best player that year, it makes one time out of 15+ seasons. What other legendary player was less dominant than Jeter? He's the Steve Nash of baseball

[Meacon Keaton]

Yeah, but since when has getting 3000 hits been about being the best player year in and year out?

Getting 3000 hits is about being a consistently good hitter throughout your entire career.

I'm not in the "Jeter = Greatest Ever" boat, but you can't poo-poo the fact that he just joined a club of 27 others out of the thousands and thousands and thousands of players to suit up in the league. He may not have ever been great, but what he accomplished this afternoon is.

[9 to 5]

Jeter is a player who has been very good for a long time, yet never the greatest. That is a wonderful thing to be that good for so long and to get 3000 hits, despite who he plays for.

[Meacon Keaton]

Well, that's just it. If Jeter had four or five years with 250 hits, and let's say injuries had forced him out, would that be considered 'great'? 250 hits is almost unthinkable nowadays (unless you're Ichiro a few years ago), but he'd have retired with a third of the career hits. Is that better than getting 180, 190, 200, 210 hits every year for 15+ years?

Like I said in my previous post, he may not be considered one of the greatest hitters of our time, but this accomplishment sure is.

[9 to 5]

This argument kinda reminds me of Andy Cole. He scored goals consistantly for years in the PL but no one would call him one of the greatest going, even just in the modern era, despite he is the 2nd top scorer in Premiership History.

[naiwf]

Well, that's just it. If Jeter had four or five years with 250 hits, and let's say injuries had forced him out, would that be considered 'great'? 250 hits is almost unthinkable nowadays (unless you're Ichiro a few years ago), but he'd have retired with a third of the career hits. Is that better than getting 180, 190, 200, 210 hits every year for 15+ years?

Like I said in my previous post, he may not be considered one of the greatest hitters of our time, but this accomplishment sure is.

Sandy Koufax only pitched 9 full seasons, but 4 of those years were godly. He had 165 wins and is still regarded as one of the best pitchers ever. Had he been able to hang around for another 5+ seasons he'd be in the 300 win club, but it wouldn't really elevate his status all that much. Also, Ichiro might have made a legit run at Pete Rose if he'd started his career in the US and he'll be a 1st ballot HOFer because the guy has 205 hits in a bad year.

Jeter is an AS caliber, but not MVP caliber player who played on great teams and his greatest skill was generally being the guy who came up with the big hit. Getting 3,000 is a great achievement, but I still don't think he is a great player. I feel the same way about Craig Biggio who had 1,800+ runs, 3,060 hits, as well as 182 more doubles, 55 more homers and 84 more steals than Jeter to date while playing C & 2B. Is anyone outside of Biggio's family trying to argue he is in the same discussion as the greatest of the greats? That's the thing that is annoying.

[Vendetta]

Just a minor note but on Thursday, Craig Kimbel broke Johnathan Papelbons rooike saves record and extended it today to 28 saves. The most by a rookie before an all star break.

[The Buscher]

Chipper Jones' ASG spot is taken by...Scott Rolen with his wonderful .245 BA. Obviously the players just gave him reputation votes without ever looking at his numbers.

Meanwhile, Andrew McCutchen finally makes it to the team, replacing Ryan Braun.

[gunnar hendershow]

The rosters this year are looking more like the last place teams in your Fantasy Baseball league every day.

[sahyder1]

3 reasons why Jeter ends being overrated.

1) New York City

2) Rich Garcia being blind

3) Jeremy Giambi not knowing how to slide......but he should still have been called safe. The play was a tie at best.

[sahyder1]

Guess it depends on what you mean by 'best player'.

I define "best" as "best"

For the heck of it I just went through year by year and put together a list of guys who had better years on the Yankees.

Derek Jeter

                                                                                                                                     

Year               G    PA   AB    R    H  2B 3B  HR  RBI  SB CS  BB   SO   BA  OBP  SLG  OPS   TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB  Pos      Awards

1995              15    51   48    5   12   4  1   0    7   0  0   3   11 .250 .294 .375 .669   18   0   0  0  0   0                6

1996             157   654  582  104  183  25  6  10   78  14  7  48  102 .314 .370 .430 .800  250  13   9  6  9   1   *6       RoY-1

1997             159   748  654  116  190  31  7  10   70  23 12  74  125 .291 .370 .405 .775  265  14  10  8  2   0   *6      MVP-24

1998             149   694  626  127  203  25  8  19   84  30  6  57  119 .324 .384 .481 .864  301  13   5  3  3   1   *6     ASMVP-3

1999             158   739  627  134  219  37  9  24  102  19  8  91  116 .349 .438 .552 .989  346  12  12  3  6   5   *6     ASMVP-6

2000             148   679  593  119  201  31  4  15   73  22  4  68   99 .339 .416 .481 .896  285  14  12  3  3   4   *6    ASMVP-10

2001             150   686  614  110  191  35  3  21   74  27  3  56   99 .311 .377 .480 .858  295  13  10  5  1   3   *6    ASMVP-10

2002             157   730  644  124  191  26  0  18   75  32  3  73  114 .297 .373 .421 .794  271  14   7  3  3   2 *6/D          AS

2003             119   542  482   87  156  25  3  10   52  11  5  43   88 .324 .393 .450 .844  217  10  13  3  1   2   *6      MVP-21

2004             154   721  643  111  188  44  1  23   78  23  4  46   99 .292 .352 .471 .823  303  19  14 16  2   1   *6  ASMVP-13GG

2005             159   752  654  122  202  25  5  19   70  14  5  77  117 .309 .389 .450 .839  294  15  11  7  3   3 *6/D    MVP-10GG

2006             154   715  623  118  214  39  3  14   97  34  5  69  102 .343 .417 .483 .900  301  13  12  7  4   4 *6/D ASMVP-2GGSS

2007             156   714  639  102  206  39  4  12   73  15  8  56  100 .322 .388 .452 .840  289  21  14  3  2   3   *6  ASMVP-11SS

2008             150   668  596   88  179  25  3  11   69  11  5  52   85 .300 .363 .408 .771  243  24   9  7  4   0 *6/D        ASSS

2009             153   716  634  107  212  27  1  18   66  30  5  72   90 .334 .406 .465 .871  295  18   5  4  1   4 *6/D ASMVP-3GGSS

2010             157   739  663  111  179  30  3  10   67  18  5  63  106 .270 .340 .370 .710  245  22   9  1  3   4 *6/D        ASGG

2011              66   312  280   40   72  12  1   2   22   7  2  24   33 .257 .321 .329 .649   92   6   4  0  4   0             *6/D

17 Seasons      2361 10860 9602 1725 2998 480 62 236 1157 330 87 972 1605 .312 .383 .449 .832 4310 241 156 79 51                   37

162 Game Avg.    162   745  659  118  206  33  4  16   79  23  6  67  110 .312 .383 .449 .832  296  17  11  5  3                    3

                   G    PA   AB    R    H  2B 3B  HR  RBI  SB CS  BB   SO   BA  OBP  SLG  OPS   TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB  Pos      Awards

Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table

Generated 7/10/2011.

1996 - O'Neil, Tino, Bernie, Pettitte, Wettland and Rivera

1997 - O'Neil, Tino, Bernie, Pettite, Cone and Rivera

1998 - Bernie and Rivera

1999 - Rivera

2000 - See Below

2001 - Mussina, Clemens, Rivera

2002 - Giambi, Soriano, Bernie,

2003 - Rivera, Giambi, Posada, Soriano

2004 - A-Rod, Matsui, Sheffield,Rivera

2005 - A-Rod, Sheffield, Rivera

2006 - See Below

2007 - A-Rod, Posada

2008 - A-Rod, Abreu, Mussina and Rivera

2009 - Sabathia, Rivera and Teixeira

2010 - A-Rod, Teixeira, Cano, Swisher, Sabathia,

In 1997 I left Davild Wells off the list despite him winning 16 games because his ERA was high. Heck, Chad Curtis in 334 less ABs hit for the same average, more HRs, just 20 less RBIs and significantly higher OPS. No, I'm not saying I'd take Chad Curtis over Jeter but just put #s into perspective.

In 1998 I left off Tino off the list despite him driving in 123 runs and O'Neil despite him driving in 116. I'll leave Cone off despite him winning 20 games. I left Wells off despite him going 18-4 with a 3.49 ERA. I left off Orlando Hernandez and his 3.13 ERA because he only started 21 games. I'm being pretty generous with 1998.

In 1999 I say he's a push with Bernie and you could make a strong case that Jeter's .349 with 24 HRs and 102 RBIs deserves top spot but Rivera had 45 saves with a 1.83 ERA and a WHIP of .883 I probably won't complain if someone wants to give Jeter 1999 but Rivera was definitely better.

In 2000 yes Jeter his .339 and you could make a case for him but a case for Bernie can easily be made. He hit 30 HRs with 121 RBIs despite only playing in 141 games.

In 2001 I left Tino off the list despite him getting 34 HRs and driving in 113.

In 2002 I left Pettitte and his 3.27 ERA off because he only pitched in 22 games.

In 2003 I left off I left Mussina and his 17-8 record with a 3.40 ERA off the list.

In 2004 I left Posada off the list despite him having a significantly higher OPS and more RBIs in 200 less ABs just because he hit only .272. I also left off Orlando Hernandez who went 8-2 3.30 ERA because he only started 15 games.

In 2005 I left off Giambi and his 32 HRs because he drove in just 87 and hit for a low average. I even left off Matsui's 116 RBIs because he "only" hit .305 and had only 23 HRs. Matsui still had a better OPS and more extra base hits. Again, I'm being fairly generous here.

In 2006 there is a strong case for Jeter again. He hit .343 and drove in 97. Arguments against Jeter? Cano hit .342 and drove in 78 despite having 140 fewer ABs. A-Rod also hit 35 HRs and drove in 121. Giambi ht 37 HRs and drove in 113. Rivera, Mussina and Wang also had great years. I'd give Jeter a push with Cano but people can make a case for A-Rod being right there too.

In 2007 you could make a case for Cano as well. I'm leaving 100+ RBIs from Matsui and Abreu off the list.

In 2008 I am leaving off a 32 HR season from Giambi.

In 2009 Jeter hit .334 and you can make a case for him but 5 other guys in the starting lineup alone matched his OPS. How can argue against Teixeira hitting 39 HRs and driving in 122? I'll leave A-Rod off the list because he only hit .286 to go along with 30 HRs and 100 RBIs. Every other player in the starting lineup drove in more runs then Jeter despite having fewer Plate Appearances (Cano was only one with more ABs and he had just 3 more ABs). Everyone but Melky Cabrera had more HRs. Everyone but Cabrera had more extra base hits as well. How can you hit .334 in over 600 ABs and only drive in 66?

In 2010 I am leaving off Pettitte's 11-3 with a 3.28 ERA because he only started 21 games. Heck, someone could make a case that Gardner and/or Posada (edit: also editing in Granderson here) had years that were just as good if not better.

I may go back and change some of this when I am more awake tomorrow but it is a pretty fair and in some cases ridiculously generous list.

Edited July 10, 2011 by sahyder1

[bill_da_bill]

Anyone here care about the HR Derby? I know most people consider it glorified batting practice, but I enjoy watching it quite a bit. I was thinking about creating a fantasy game for it just for shits and giggles. Would anyone be interested in that?

[Berober]

bill, I would honestly be interested in that, so if you do, sign me up