2008/2009 Hockey Thread v2.0

[Toe]

Supposedly Columbus sent some scouts to watch the Leafs/Sabers game last night. They're interested in (from what was said) getting Antropov and either Kubina or Kaberlie. The push is on for the Jackets to make the playoffs since they're only a point back from being in the fold. Pascal Leclaire's name has been thrown around a bit as someone Columbus is looking to unload.

Of course no one knows what's going on after the horrible game the Leafs played last night.

I don't see Toronto being interested in Leclaire unless he has an expiring contract.

Toronto had a good chance to climb up the standings last night and blew it. I want them to go one way or the other at this point. Either start winning some games and move up into the playoffs, or start sucking ass. Burke will probably make some moves that will take the team down the suck route in the short term, but stockpile picks.

Now that I have said this, Toronto will probably win 5 in a row and Burke will trade our first round pick for Bill Guerin or someone equally as old.

[Reddaye]

I don't see Toronto being interested in Leclaire unless he has an expiring contract.

Toronto had a good chance to climb up the standings last night and blew it. I want them to go one way or the other at this point. Either start winning some games and move up into the playoffs, or start sucking ass. Burke will probably make some moves that will take the team down the suck route in the short term, but stockpile picks.

Now that I have said this, Toronto will probably win 5 in a row and Burke will trade our first round pick for Bill Guerin or someone equally as old.

I'd be surprised to see them take Leclaire too.

I'm personally with the camp right now that would just rather see them drop like a rock down the standings. Maybe that means I'm not a "true fan" but in my opinion the best way to rebuild is just like you said: stockpile picks and suck bad enough to get you a good first round pick. It sucks to see the team lose but look what it did for Washington. Their entire youth core was built through the draft. I'd love to see the Leafs do the same.

Edited January 2, 2009 by Drifter_2000

[Toe]

I don't see Toronto being interested in Leclaire unless he has an expiring contract.

Toronto had a good chance to climb up the standings last night and blew it. I want them to go one way or the other at this point. Either start winning some games and move up into the playoffs, or start sucking ass. Burke will probably make some moves that will take the team down the suck route in the short term, but stockpile picks.

Now that I have said this, Toronto will probably win 5 in a row and Burke will trade our first round pick for Bill Guerin or someone equally as old.

I'd be surprised to see them take Leclaire too.

I'm personally with the camp right now that would just rather see them drop like a rock down the standings. Maybe that means I'm not a "true fan" but in my opinion the best way to rebuild is just like you said: stockpile picks and suck bad enough to get you a good first round pick. It sucks to see the team lose but look what it did for Washington. Their entire youth core was built through the draft. I'd love to see the Leafs do the same.

I think we can rebuild and remain competitive. I don't mean they should anyone good at the draft. Just stay where they are in terms of personal and win some games. They have shown the potential to play well, but they are inconsistent. I am leaning more and more towards selling assets for picks. I think that will happen either way with Antropov being our top asset in trade value.

[Reddaye]

I think we can rebuild and remain competitive. I don't mean they should anyone good at the draft. Just stay where they are in terms of personal and win some games. They have shown the potential to play well, but they are inconsistent. I am leaning more and more towards selling assets for picks. I think that will happen either way with Antropov being our top asset in trade value.

I know we can rebuild and still be competitive, I'd just rather see us get a better chance at a nice draft pick. Not that it'll happen but Tavares in Toronto would be huge (if he lived up to expectations). I like it when the team wins games, but it doesn't really piss me off when they lose either. Kind of a double edged sword I guess.

As far as assets go I always kind of thought Kaberle was at the top of the heap. Of course his play this season hasn't been too stellar so that might hurt. There's also the no trade clause which makes moving him around a bit tough. Aside from that you'd think he'd be our best ace since defensemen of his caliber are usually quite sought after.

Not saying Antropov isn't a good asset. He's been having a great season.

[Gabriel]

I think the NHL needs to re-evaluate the draft pick selection process.

Instead of ranking draft order by standings, they should be randomly drawn. That way, you can avoid any and all talk about teams purposely tanking in order to get better picks.

If you're not going to try to make the playoffs, you might as well not even be in the league. I appreciate the idea of building around the draft, but if you draft well, you'll find as many (or more) superstar players in later picks as you will with your first couple. Look at the Detroit Red Wings. They are a team that built through the draft, and they never once purposely sacrificed a season to do it.

Brian Burke can accumulate mass amounts of draft picks, but he needs to keep his club competitive enough to push for the 8th playoff spot.

Off the top of my head, he's probably got 4 or 5 forwards, 2 defensemen and 1 goalie in the system who could step in and play in the NHL this season... which gives him a lot of lee-way in trading people for picks, but he needs to remember to make sure that his team actually has a chance of doing something this year.

So... trade Kaberle for a pick or two... send Antropov somewhere for a roster player... trade someone else for another pick or two... send someone else away for another roster player.

If they stock up on enough draft picks and keep around some guys that other teams might want, then come draft time, they might even be able to trade a couple picks, or a pick and a guy, to a team for a top 5 pick in the draft... I really don't see anything wrong with that approach.

[Guest Mr. Potato Head]

Draft picks among all non-playoff teams have been done by a lottery for a few years now.

[Gabriel]

Draft picks among all non-playoff teams have been done by a lottery for a few years now.

Sort of. The most you can move up is 5 picks.

I think all 30 teams, after the Stanley Cup finals, should be randomly selected for the selection order in the Entry Draft.

That way, the team that finishes 1st has just as likely a chance of getting the 1st Overall Pick as the team that finishes 30th.

[NobBe Nobbs]

Meaning that, in any given season, there is no guarantee that the best player in the draft will go to the team that needs him most. Meaning that there is nothing to stop the best team getting the best player, or maybe the best two or three if they have multiple picks. Meaning that that is a very stupid idea.

[Gabriel]

Meaning that, in any given season, there is no guarantee that the best player in the draft will go to the team that needs him most. Meaning that there is nothing to stop the best team getting the best player, or maybe the best two or three if they have multiple picks. Meaning that that is a very stupid idea.

It forces teams to draft more intelligently and try to do the best they can during the season.

Also... it would stop teams from dealing away their draft picks for little to nothing. They'd have to think about who they were sending them to, and make sure what they're getting in return is worth it.

Right now, the view from a lot of people is that if you're not in the playoffs, you might as well be in the cellar... and that is a very stupid idea.

Fans of competent, but not great, teams are clamouring for their teams to sink to the bottom. Why? That's fucking ridiculous.

There are easily 15 players in this year's draft class who could step in and be impact guys next season or the year after. You don't need to tank to get a good pick... you need to be smart about it, scout properly, and figure out what exactly you're looking for.

[NobBe Nobbs]

scout properly

You're one of those people who think Henrik Zetterberg was an example of Detroit having scouts who are better than God, aren't you?

It forces teams to draft more intelligently and try to do the best they can during the season.

It does. But trying to incorporate that without a fucking fantasy draft means that Atlanta and Long Island, through no fault of their own, could see this lottery go "sry lol u pik 29th now", lose out on those 15 impact players and have less chance than ever of being good next year.

[Cactus Drags]

Draft picks among all non-playoff teams have been done by a lottery for a few years now.

Sort of. The most you can move up is 5 picks.

I think all 30 teams, after the Stanley Cup finals, should be randomly selected for the selection order in the Entry Draft.

That way, the team that finishes 1st has just as likely a chance of getting the 1st Overall Pick as the team that finishes 30th.

That is a completely fucking stupid idea. For a start, it entirely negates the whole point of having a draft, i.e. maintaining a dgree of competition amongst teams, so you don't get massive talent gaps like you do in say English football where the money controls everything. Secondly, it completely ruins the concept of trading picks because there's no protection whatsoever. I could trade a prospect to you for a second round pick, you end up bottom of the standings, yet get the 28th pick. I end up losing a prospect and have a lesser chance of finding a decent talent in the draft. Sure, there'll be a few teams rewarded with scouting units that can find a gem at any spot in the board, but then you're handing the game over to the suits and you may as well not play the games. Finally, it doesn't do anything to get teams gunning for the playoffs anymore than they would be anyway, because there's no further reward than the Cup.

The NFL doesn't have trouble with teams tanking for picks, I don't see why any other league should.

[Gabriel]

scout properly

You're one of those people who think Henrik Zetterberg was an example of Detroit having scouts who are better than God, aren't you?

It forces teams to draft more intelligently and try to do the best they can during the season.

It does. But trying to incorporate that without a fucking fantasy draft means that Atlanta and Long Island, through no fault of their own, could see this lottery go "sry lol u pik 29th now", lose out on those 15 impact players and have less chance than ever of being good next year.

Then they are forced to wheel and deal.

The Islanders, for instance... Joey MacDonald has played tremendously this season. With DiPietro as their number one guy for 10+ more years, they can move MacDonald somewhere and improve either on offense or defense, whichever they think needs more help.

Plus, there's always free agency.

I don't think Detroit's scouts are even the best in the league, but they're extremely good at seeing things in players that would make the Red Wings a better team. They're not out there looking for the "best players". They're out there looking for the best players who would fit into the Detroit landscape... and that's something that I think a lot of teams have forgotten to do, especially with all the hype placed on top picks. Everyone's looking at certain players as the best, but they're ignoring their needs as a team and whether or not those players can even fit into the club as it is designed.

EDIT: Dragsy... I think the combination of Toronto fans declaring the season forfeit and Brian Burke's willingness to be completely insane have me a little bit frightened. I don't want to see a trend start of teams trading away all the players who make them good right now, in exchange for draft picks and/or players who might make them good in five years.

As important as the future is, the present needs to be considered just as important. No matter who you are, your goal should be to win now, win tomorrow, and win in five years. You do not, under any circumstances give up, forfeit the season and build a team for a couple years down the road.

You need to build while you're still trying to win... and I'm afraid that if Brian Burke and the Maple Leafs take the other road, that we might start seeing lots of other teams travelling it as well in the near future... and just like with the free agents holding out until December, I really don't want to see that become a trend.

Edited January 2, 2009 by Gabriel

[NobBe Nobbs]

I don't think Detroit's scouts are even the best in the league, but they're extremely good at seeing things in players that would make the Red Wings a better team. They're not out there looking for the "best players". They're out there looking for the best players who would fit into the Detroit landscape... and that's something that I think a lot of teams have forgotten to do, especially with all the hype placed on top picks. Everyone's looking at certain players as the best, but they're ignoring their needs as a team and whether or not those players can even fit into the club as it is designed.

No, no, you're an idiot.

The Detroit scouts did not know that Henrik Zetterberg was going to be as good as he is.

They didn't think he'd even be an NHL-quality player.

How do I know this?

HE WASN'T PICKED UNTIL THE SEVENTH ROUND.

Not even the Patriots are big enough douchebags to sit there, while somebody they know is talented is still on the board, and go "lololol the other teams dont know about him" "hey dude should we pick him in the 5th" "no dude lets wait to the sixth" "naw lets go for the seventh so we can really make everyone look stupid", so Detroit did not do that.

Zetterberg's drafting was a lucky guess.

Let me repeat that because it is the truth:

ZETTERBERG'S DRAFTING WAS A LUCKY GUESS.

[Cactus Drags]

The issue I have is that your proposal doesn't help the situation whatsoever.

[Reddaye]

I agree with you Gabriel in the fact that it sucks seeing teams tank on purpose in order to rebuild but I don't think your suggestion really helps the situation. The current draft system is far from perfect but it's much better than what you're suggesting.

I go to Chicago as an example. Here's an original six team that was struggling in the standings and having a hard time drawing fans for quite a while as a result. I don't believe they "tanked" on purpose but they ended up getting good draft positions. They used the picks to collect together an exciting young team and the entire franchise is on a big up swing because of it. The draft system let a team rebuild itself and turned it around from a franchise that was having some really poor years into one of the big franchises in terms of popularity and talent.

The same thing goes for Washington. They were doing poorly and getting that early pick netted them a superstar that has helped turn the entire franchise around. Later picks like Semin, Green, and Backstrom have helped turn them turn into a serious contender.

Right now you've got teams like Atlanta, Long Island, and Tampa Bay that are in need of a boost. In the case of Tampa and Atlanta they need to not only get better teams but they need to get people into their building. The best way to do it is to make a vibrant and successful team. Usually the best way to do it is by getting good picks.

If everything was random teams like San Jose, and Detroit could just as easily get the first pick in the next draft. Do San Jose or Detroit need a player like say Tavares, or Hedman? IMO they don't. Could a struggling team like the Thrashers, Islanders, or Lightning use a player like that to make them competitive again and help draw people to their games? I'd say so. The system as it is now helps give struggling teams a boost when they need it.

[Cactus Drags]

Also, if you have teams like Detroit harvesting the first pick, you could end up with situations where they hold the guy up to ransom and teams end up overpaying by tons just to get that name draft pick.

Edited January 2, 2009 by Dragsy

[Reddaye]

To continue my musings from before there's also the fact that after years and years of doing poorly, and either not making the playoffs or not making it deep that it just seems like you're beating your head against a concrete wall. Eventually it's time to say that being "competitive" is all great and wonderful, but is it worth constantly finishing 9th in the Conference standings every year? Or even maybe getting 8th and being steam rolled in the first round? Maybe it's time to lay back a little and start trying to get some decent prospects, maybe even top ones.

Sometimes it's better to make like a phoenix and turn to ashes so you can raise up and be successful. It's more frustrating for me as a fan to watch my team continually just miss the playoffs or never go deep than it is to hear the management say: "Look, things haven't been good the last decade or so and it's time to change things up. We know we need to rebuild and now we're committed to doing it. This may be a few painful years but we're trying to go in the right direction."

Getting the rebuilding process going is more exciting to me than seeing the team finish 9th or 10th every season: rinse and repeat. At least now there's possibly something more to look forward to.

All of this is IMO of course.

[Guest Mr. Potato Head]

Most teams don't "tank to rebuild" because they realize it almost never actually works.

[Gabriel]

In Chicago's case... they did poorly because of bad trades, bad signings, and the fact that their ownership did not make anyone want to support the team.

With new ownership and exciting young draft picks, as well as better trading and signings, the Blackhawks have turned things around. The fact that they drafted well and high up helped, but honestly, the new ownership and getting the fans into the game again were ultimately what turned the team around.

If the draft never changes, I'll be happy. I really enjoy the way it's done right now, and it's an exciting two days for me. That being said, I am still very fearful that Ownership and Management purposely trying to sink their team will begin to happen.

That doesn't mean that for instance, Brian Burke will trade everyone who's any good for absolutely nobody, leaving himself with a minor league team playing in the NHL... but it does mean that he could very well just say "Fuck it... this season doesn't matter" and leave his team with gigantic holes in the starting roster, sacrificing the season in exchange for the future.

That's why I am hoping that some solution comes around to really show people (mostly fans of the teams), that finishing last shouldn't be considered a prize. You do badly, and you get a high pick as consolation. It's not a reward for failing...and that's just what it feels like it's being treated as... and I don't like it.

So I made a suggestion, and everyone brings up valid points. It's not a good idea, but it is an idea that I thought about to help solve a situation I can see becoming a problem.

How about we move on to another idea?

Penalizing teams for back to back icing calls under the Delay of Game penalty... what do you think? I brought this up a little while back, but there was no response.

How about that Junior game today? Slovakia beating the US was not something I saw happening, but the Americans were clearly demoralized following their loss to Canada the other night. The kids were getting chances, but not capitalizing, and they let their frustrations take over.

Also, the Slovaks usually have an offensively talented team with good goaltending and little to no defensive zone coverage. This year, great goaltending from Janus and a hard working team who blocks shots and plays hard, but has little offensive flair. I'm really looking forward to their game against Sweden tomorrow.

[Reddaye]

Penalizing teams for back to back icing calls under the Delay of Game penalty... what do you think? I brought this up a little while back, but there was no response.

How about that Junior game today? Slovakia beating the US was not something I saw happening, but the Americans were clearly demoralized following their loss to Canada the other night. The kids were getting chances, but not capitalizing, and they let their frustrations take over.

Slovakia won? Holy shit that IS a bit of a surprise. I haven't been paying much attention to the World Juniors outside of Team Canada highlights (sadly not getting TSN currently). So does this basically mean the States won't be getting a medal this year?

Penalizing teams for back to back icing calls under Delay of Game is an idea I could do without. I know it's an attempt to speed the game up but at times it almost seems like they're giving out penalties for everything now. Before you know it they'll give a penalty for knocking the net off it's moorings.