2008/2009 Hockey Thread v2.0

[Reddaye]

Tough loss tonight. Honestly if we're going to lose games I'd rather not get a point out of it at all, but that's just me. Awesome work by the Moore/Blake/Poni line tonight...total work horse line. Hagman had a hell of a game too.

Word is that Pogge is starting the next game. Anyone know if that's a TSN game or not?

[The Sultan of Swank]

It is.

Montreal dominates Pittsburgh tonight. I don't think Pittsburgh even showed up, and I'm pretty sure that if Crosby spent less time complaining to refs, and more time playing hockey, they might have had a chance.

I'm actually curious now, I think Toronto might lead the league hands down, with blown 3rd period leads in the last 3 years or so.

[Clawson]

Toskalol

[Maxx]

Fucking Flames, how dare you ruin my streak.

[Toe]

It is.

Montreal dominates Pittsburgh tonight. I don't think Pittsburgh even showed up, and I'm pretty sure that if Crosby spent less time complaining to refs, and more time playing hockey, they might have had a chance.

I'm actually curious now, I think Toronto might lead the league hands down, with blown 3rd period leads in the last 3 years or so.

I think the Leafs do. It has become so infuriating to watch. When they scored the tying goal, I just stopped watching because I knew the final outcome. Toskala is actually worse then Raycroft right now, because at least Raycroft won 37 games when he was the starter.

[Gabriel]

Yeah, but Raycroft did it with a far better team in front of him.

As it stands, the Leafs are only 10 or so back of a playoff spot. They've exceeded expectations for the season, which was supposed to see them tanking horribly at the bottom of the standings.

If they had a forward with the finishing touch, another steady top 4 defenseman, and either a superstar goalie, or a reasonable number one with a great backup... they'd be a dangerous team.

The way things are though, you've got the guys thinking far too much about whether or not they're even going to be with the team much longer. Guys are making stupid mistakes, probably due in large part to their lack of focus because of the Brian Burke shadow that looms over them.

This team, as it is right now, can make the playoffs if they get their heads in the game and commit 100% to the Ron Wilson philosophy. Until they're not fearing for their jobs though, the veterans will continue to make the mistakes that have been costing the Leafs the majority of their close games... and that's just the way it is.

Rookies and younger players are supposed to make mistakes, but when Kaberle or Kubina are coughing the puck up for the winning goal on a consistent basis, you need to address the issues. The issue here, like I said, is Brian Burke. He needs to start solidifying his lineup. If he can't make trades right now, he needs to go to five or six guys and promise them that they won't be moved this season, period. Until that happens, the frustration will continue.

[Toe]

I am almost certain that Burke would prefer the team to tank and he wants to sell of assets. He won't purposely make the team Islanders horrible and he wants the team to compete, but he wants to be in a position to compete for the Cup, not just for a playoff spot.

[Gabriel]

I am almost certain that Burke would prefer the team to tank and he wants to sell of assets. He won't purposely make the team Islanders horrible and he wants the team to compete, but he wants to be in a position to compete for the Cup, not just for a playoff spot.

I understand what he wants to do... but there comes a point where he needs to realize, this team is going to push for a playoff spot unless he removes a couple of key figures without replacing them. So... either, he needs to settle down a large group of his players so that they can play well enough to at least go out with a bang... or he needs to start pulling the trigger on some deals and starting the changing process.

I realize how hard it is to swing trades these days, but he doesn't need to move Kubina, Kaberle or Antropov right away. He does though, need to start moving the other players he doesn't see a future for on his team.

The longer it takes for him to start dealing, the worse the team is going to be down the stretch. Unfortunately, he doesn't have long enough to wait that the team will become so bad they will be guaranteed to miss the post-season. With the deadline in a month, and the stretch thereafter, the team has plenty of time to challenge for a playoff spot as high as 5 or 6, more realistically, 8th.

I'm just saying... if he stops the rocking of the boat sooner than later, and gets his team focused and ready for the stretch... they won't just be fighting for a playoff spot... they'll be an extremely dangerous team to face come the post-season, and could possibly play the role of Cinderella.

Will they win the Cup this year? No way. 0% chance... but if Burkie can bring in a trigger man while losing the guys he doesn't want... there's no reason to think they can't finish the season out by making the playoffs, winning a series and letting everyone know that the Toronto Maple Leafs aren't the bitch boys of the last few years anymore.

The team won't tank. No matter how much they fuck up, they're not bad enough to tank. Might as well try to finish the year by making a statement instead.

[Toe]

They don't have a chance in hell of making the playoffs with their current goaltending situation. Toskala looked okay through the first...10 games maybe, but he has been bad for so long that it is hard to believe he is just on a cold streak. Joseph has lost it. Pogge is not ready.

[The Sultan of Swank]

I'm not trying to knock the leads gabrial, but saying that a team that is 10 points out *only* needs a triggerman, a top 4 d and a superstar or at least a legit starter to make the playoffs... Those are 3 commodities that are quite hard to come by, 2 of en would have to come from within the organization unless Toronto wants to give away all their picks for the next 4 years. Toe has the right idea, were not a playoff team, but a few good moves and a few of the right players maturing and who knows maybe in a year or two we surprise a lot of people. I'm sorry but it's just strange to me how every leafed I know save for like 2 seem to think the leafs are pretty much a few trades and like 3 seasons from a cup. Toronto has some good kids coming up and they'll have money to spend July first, but the kids need to mature, the team is absolutely full of glaring weaknesses that may take more than a year to address and they need to lure the right players to the team to compliment their core.

I mean the Habs took from 2001 when they started drafting some of our kiddie corps and they only showed promise in maybe 2005 and took till 2008 to prove anything, and lord how we suffered as fans...

Toronto is in capable hands, but the fans and media are going to need to be a little patient.

[Reddaye]

Toskala sucks, yadda, yadda, yadda. I've been down that road before so I won't dwell on it. Aside from that last goal Toskala played rather well last night all things considered. Better than he normally does anyways.

The report last night said that following our semi-loss last night that we've now got an 8.1% chance of getting the number one pick in the draft. So basically it's not going to happen. Look for Burke to draft Brayden Schenn with our 6/7th overall pick.

That being said Lee Stempniak continues to be nearly invisible on the ice. I once thought we made out like bandits in that trade...now I'm starting to wonder if Toronto is the right fit for Stempy. Was he really worth giving up two assets to get? We needed that right handed shot, and a good shooter to play point on the power play. Strangely enough our PP is 10th in the league and I don't think he's contributed to a single PPG (although I'm probably wrong).

Really hoping he gets his game together because I know the guy has talent and could add some scoring depth to the team. The change of scenery has seemingly helped Steen and Cola though, which is good for them.

[Pizza]

I'm sorry but it's just strange to me how every leafed I know save for like 2 seem to think the leafs are pretty much a few trades and like 3 seasons from a cup.

To be fair, given the nature of the NHL and what we've seen before with teams like the Hurricanes, I would say that pretty much all 30 teams could be a few good moves and 3 years away from the cup.

[The Sultan of Swank]

Good teams don't magically appear, they're built by good gms, great drafting and a locker room that believes in itself. I could name 10 teams that still won't have a shot in 3 years. Look how mismanaged the isles are, the leafs were, the send were. Now look at the genius behind Detroit who have been a legit threat for 12 years now, San jose who have been a great team for a few seasons now. There are very few teams who have all the front office qualities and on ice talent to even be dreaming of a cup within 3 years. Yes there are Cinderella seasons and playoff runs, shit the Habs last two cups were Cinderella stories, but realistically they had quite good teams in those seasons and waaaaaaay more often than not the best or one of the leagues top teams wins.

Also Carolina had 112 points the year they won...

Edited February 4, 2009 by The Sultan of Swank

[Pizza]

In the 06-07 season the Habs were worse than the Leafs, and their prospects looked about the same. Now the Canadiens are one of the top teams in the East and the Leafs are much worse than they were then. Or look at Tampa in 2001, 2004, and now. I wouldn't suggest Tampa is a well managed team, yet players like Lecavalier and Richards blossoming and stealing Martin St. Louis when no one else would even look at him took them to the cup. Or look at Boston. They were written off when they had to trade Joe Thornton, and the only piece they got back that's still with them is Marco Sturm, and he's always hurt. But the signings of Marc Savard, Zdeno Chara, and the shocking transformation of Tim Thomas from journeyman AHL backup to Vezina trophy candidate has made them legit cup contenders. Obviously some teams are better run then others and will always be near the top, but I wouldn't rule any team out of winning the cup in 2012.

And Carolina had 61 points and were dead last in the league with no superstar prospects and an aging team in 2003, three years before they won. Drafting Eric Staal that summer and a few good moves made them contenders just three short years later.

Edited February 4, 2009 by pizzamonkey

[Reddaye]

Grabovski won't be playing tonight against Buffalo. No reason was given, so take it for what you will.

Me thinks he's still being benched after the gaff he made last night that caused him to be a spectator.

[Gabriel]

In the 06-07 season the Habs were worse than the Leafs, and their prospects looked about the same. Now the Canadiens are one of the top teams in the East and the Leafs are much worse than they were then. Or look at Tampa in 2001, 2004, and now. I wouldn't suggest Tampa is a well managed team, yet players like Lecavalier and Richards blossoming and stealing Martin St. Louis when no one else would even look at him took them to the cup. Or look at Boston. They were written off when they had to trade Joe Thornton, and the only piece they got back that's still with them is Marco Sturm, and he's always hurt. But the signings of Marc Savard, Zdeno Chara, and the shocking transformation of Tim Thomas from journeyman AHL backup to Vezina trophy candidate has made them legit cup contenders. Obviously some teams are better run then others and will always be near the top, but I wouldn't rule any team out of winning the cup in 2012.

And Carolina had 61 points and were dead last in the league with no superstar prospects and an aging team in 2003, three years before they won. Drafting Eric Staal that summer and a few good moves made them contenders just three short years later.

This is what I'm getting at here.

The way the league is designed, it's one part good management, one part good prospects, one part good luck. We have teams contending for the Cup one season, and then dwelling the cellars the next. Sometimes without even losing many of the players that took them to success.

We've got teams scraping at the bottom of the barrell one season, only to come back the next season, with a 3-4 new key acquisitions, and challenge for the Cup. Philadelphia, anybody?

What I'm saying is this... if they can manage to pick up a natural goal scorer and solidify their goaltending, whether it be a new starter, or a more solid backup... and replace any of the top 4 defensemen that they get rid of (even with younger guys who just need the opportunity to prove they're a top 4 guy)... then they could very well either finish this year by making a statement that they're not a joke... or they could come into next year fired up and possibly even do what Philadelphia did.

The point is... in this new NHL... no matter how badly you're doing... you're really only a few key pieces away from being a player come Spring.

[Toe]

Pogge in goal tonight, for anyone who doesn't know yet.

[Gabriel]

Pogge in goal tonight, for anyone who doesn't know yet.

Speaking of which... a caller on Hardcore Hockey Talk today, asked Koulie if the Leafs should just keep Pogge up the rest of the season and see how he does.

Personally, if the primary goal isn't the post-season, then I don't see why not. Toskala has performed admirably at times under these conditions, but he's not a Superstar goalie. He could be a number one on a very good team, like Osgood in Detroit, but he's not a Superstar goalie.

They've played Toskala about 44 games, I think, this season... which shows they're obviously not serious about Joseph as a backup. Why not use the rest of the season to get a really good look and judge how far off Pogge is? Worst case scenario, they lose and end up in a better draft position.

They might not be able to move Toskala or Joseph, but clearly, neither of those guys are going to be the number one goalie by the time Brian Burke has solidified his team. Justin Pogge might be that guy, and I see no reason at all why he shouldn't at least split the remaining games with Toskala.

If he succeeds, then great... you've got a tandem of Pogge/Toskala for next season that's actually not too bad.

If he fails, then at least Burke will be able to judge how far away he is, and make moves this summer based on that.

Playing him a game here or there isn't going to be a good representation of where his development is at. I say, give him at least 15 of the remaining games this season.

[Guest Mr. Potato Head]

I agree almost completely. Pogge is, as things stand now, the guy who will be between the pipes when the Leafs get good - so give him the NHL experience now, rather than when it's more important to win every game.

[Toe]

The defensive coverage for Toronto has been horrible. I don't want to watch the game anymore because they just can't play defence tonight. They are just chasing people and losing every race for the puck against a team that just finished a long road trip.