NFL 2008

[naiwf]

I hear you. I totally forgot that the Steelers should always go 19-0 every year and only lose by flukes, which is what was clouding MY judgment. I'll be sure not to make that mistake anymore.

On a more relevant note, if the Jets lose this game to the Seahawks they should just stay in Seattle and start their offseason early.

[Evil Chase K]

I hear you. I totally forgot that the Steelers should always go 19-0 every year and only lose by flukes, which is what was clouding MY judgment. I'll be sure not to make that mistake anymore.

Yawn. Again, everyone always mentions how I "worship" Ben but no one says anything to dispute what I said. I gave you specific reasons why I don't think Ben is to blame for the turnovers (except for the last one) and yet there's no response to that.

Ben's biggest mistakes today were calling audibles that ran right into the Titans defense (at least 4 times) and the stupid spike in the first half before the missed FG when they still had a TO left.

[NobBe Nobbs]

Right, my "worship" of Ben TOTALLY distorts my impression on the game.

It so very, very, very does.

How does it? Please explain to me the flaws in my thinking.

This is not something you can argue against.

When you have a favourite team or a favourite player, you focus on their strengths and ignore their flaws. You remember the things they did well and forget the mistakes they made. You praise them for the good plays they made and - this is especially true in the case of football - blame others for the bad plays.

Let's examine the last point. Your defense of the first two of the four fumbles Rongrastname committed was that it was a good play on the part of the Titans' defense for the first and Willie Colon's fault on the second - you don't seem to consider the possibility that it was Rongrastname's fault for doing what he's done since the beginning of his career and holding on to the ball too long.

See where I'm getting at? Or are you going to bury your head in the sand some more and claim Rongrastname should be the MVP as well for good measure?

[Evil Chase K]

When you have a favourite team or a favourite player, you focus on their strengths and ignore their flaws. You remember the things they did well and forget the mistakes they made. You praise them for the good plays they made and - this is especially true in the case of football - blame others for the bad plays.

Let's examine the last point. Your defense of the first two of the four fumbles Rongrastname committed was that it was a good play on the part of the Titans' defense for the first and Willie Colon's fault on the second - you don't seem to consider the possibility that it was Rongrastname's fault for doing what he's done since the beginning of his career and holding on to the ball too long.

Did you see the play? Ben looked off the first read, and had a guy in his face. Willie Colon got totally ass whipped.

See where I'm getting at? Or are you going to bury your head in the sand some more and claim Rongrastname should be the MVP as well for good measure?

I don't see where you're getting at. Ben holds onto the ball too long at times. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But that fumble wasn't his fault. He had nowhere to move to because he had 2 defenders and a fat, useless offensive tackle collapsing in on him.

I don't ignore the guy's faults. I know damn well what they are and when it hurts the team. And admittedly Ben played far from perfect today. I mentioned what I thought were his biggest mistakes.

But blaming him for guys making good plays or an offensive lineman getting beat badly? That's stupid.

[naiwf]

You know that Big Ben deserves the MVP despite the 14 fumbles and 14 picks in 15 games because he comes up BIG like his nickname suggests in the 4th Quarter. He just fucks around during the first three quarters to lure defenses into a false sense of security, and then BAM he flips the switch and it's game over, Steelers win bay-bee!

Seriously speaking though without Harrison, Polamalu and that killer defense Big Ben's stats would be even worse since that's what keeps them in most games until the end. That Giants game this year was the most frustrating thing I've ever seen. I think we had like 5 or 6 trips into the red zone and came out with a bunch of field goals. Against any other defense that's a 24+ point blowout, instead the Steelers lost by 7 and Big Ben had the chance to play "hero" again despite the fact that he threw 4 picks and was under 50% in completions before the botched snap gave us the final margin. He's kinda like Trent Dilfer with a better arm.

Edited December 21, 2008 by naiwf

[Evil Chase K]

You know that Big Ben deserves the MVP despite the 14 fumbles and 14 picks in 15 games because he comes up BIG like his nickname suggests in the 4th Quarter. He just fucks around during the first three quarters to lure defenses into a false sense of security, and then BAM he flips the switch and it's game over, Steelers win bay-bee!

Do you actually want to attempt and dispute anything I said about today's game or are you just going to continue to be a troll?

Seriously speaking though without Harrison, Polamalu and that killer defense Big Ben's stats would be even worse since that's what keeps them in most games until the end. That Giants game this year was the most frustrating thing I've ever seen. I think we had like 5 or 6 trips into the red zone and came out with a bunch of field goals. Against any other defense that's a 24+ point blowout, instead the Steelers lost by 7 and Big Ben had the chance to play "hero" again despite he threw 4 picks and was under 50% in completions. He's kinda like Trent Dilfer with a better arm.

I really don't think you can judge Ben solely on stats when you look at the way the rest of the offense is performing. With a terrible offensive line and no running game to speak of I'd say that's a pretty big handicap.

I think you could make an argument that if Ben had an offensive line his stats would be better. But then again, I think people put too much stock into stats. The only stat that really matters is wins. And you can't argue that Ben wins games.

I mean take Drew Brees for example. Great stats, shit team. So what? I'd take a QB with shit stats that wins games over a QB who plays great on a losing team.

And I know that by saying that I'm not taking into account the team around him or the situation. But neither are you. Ben wins games for his team, he has since he came into the league. Carson Palmer puts up great numbers but sucks in pressure situations. Big deal.

[NobBe Nobbs]

Do you actually want to attempt and dispute anything I said about today's game or are you just going to continue to be a troll?

Yeah, me and naiwf are the trolls, and everybody but you is unequivocably wrong.

Ben doesn't win games. The defense wins games. Ben is like a slightly better Trent Dilfer, in that he can execute a decent drive every now and again, but he's a sideshow.

[rocksta]

You know that Big Ben deserves the MVP despite the 14 fumbles and 14 picks in 15 games because he comes up BIG like his nickname suggests in the 4th Quarter. He just fucks around during the first three quarters to lure defenses into a false sense of security, and then BAM he flips the switch and it's game over, Steelers win bay-bee!

Do you actually want to attempt and dispute anything I said about today's game or are you just going to continue to be a troll?

Seriously speaking though without Harrison, Polamalu and that killer defense Big Ben's stats would be even worse since that's what keeps them in most games until the end. That Giants game this year was the most frustrating thing I've ever seen. I think we had like 5 or 6 trips into the red zone and came out with a bunch of field goals. Against any other defense that's a 24+ point blowout, instead the Steelers lost by 7 and Big Ben had the chance to play "hero" again despite he threw 4 picks and was under 50% in completions. He's kinda like Trent Dilfer with a better arm.

I really don't think you can judge Ben solely on stats when you look at the way the rest of the offense is performing. With a terrible offensive line and no running game to speak of I'd say that's a pretty big handicap.

I think you could make an argument that if Ben had an offensive line his stats would be better. But then again, I think people put too much stock into stats. The only stat that really matters is wins. And you can't argue that Ben wins games.

I mean take Drew Brees for example. Great stats, shit team. So what? I'd take a QB with shit stats that wins games over a QB who plays great on a losing team.

And I know that by saying that I'm not taking into account the team around him or the situation. But neither are you. Ben wins games for his team, he has since he came into the league. Carson Palmer puts up great numbers but sucks in pressure situations. Big deal.

Noooooooooooooooo. The steelers win games, its not Ben. It's their defense. If Brees was the Steelers quarterback he'd win games too.

[naiwf]

You really don't grasp anything anyone else says do you? The Steelers DEFENSE wins games, and Ben gets credit for the victories despite his mediocre numbers and much more than occasional HORRID games against good to great teams. If Harrison doesn't snap that ball out of the end zone you beat the Giants despite his abortion of a game. The defense shut down the Giants inside the 20 time and time again, and the QB would get credit for the win even though he was the biggest reason they ended up losing the game. He doesn't win games in the way that a Peyton Manning wins games, the defense keeps them in it long enough for him to put together a single decent drive late in the fourth and pull one out at the end. If you put Drew Brees on the Steelers that team would be just as good but his stats wouldn't be as gaudy because he wouldn't need to throw 40+ times a game, but put Ben on the Saints and that team is the drizzles because the defense can't protect him. If you're going to argue that his team has no offensive help, you can't ignore that the defense carries them to 90% of their success.

[Evil Chase K]

Do you actually want to attempt and dispute anything I said about today's game or are you just going to continue to be a troll?

Yeah, me and naiwf are the trolls, and everybody but you is unequivocably wrong.

Ben doesn't win games. The defense wins games. Ben is like a slightly better Trent Dilfer, in that he can execute a decent drive every now and again, but he's a sideshow.

Okay then, name a quarterback who wins games. Certainly every successful QB has been successful because of a well balanced team.

Dan Marino is one of the best QBs ever, he never won a Super Bowl. Trent Dilfer sucked and he did.

The truth is always somewhere in the middle. Without Ben the Steelers wouldn't be 11-4. Without their defense they wouldn't be 11-4.

You know that Big Ben deserves the MVP despite the 14 fumbles and 14 picks in 15 games because he comes up BIG like his nickname suggests in the 4th Quarter. He just fucks around during the first three quarters to lure defenses into a false sense of security, and then BAM he flips the switch and it's game over, Steelers win bay-bee!

Do you actually want to attempt and dispute anything I said about today's game or are you just going to continue to be a troll?

Seriously speaking though without Harrison, Polamalu and that killer defense Big Ben's stats would be even worse since that's what keeps them in most games until the end. That Giants game this year was the most frustrating thing I've ever seen. I think we had like 5 or 6 trips into the red zone and came out with a bunch of field goals. Against any other defense that's a 24+ point blowout, instead the Steelers lost by 7 and Big Ben had the chance to play "hero" again despite he threw 4 picks and was under 50% in completions. He's kinda like Trent Dilfer with a better arm.

I really don't think you can judge Ben solely on stats when you look at the way the rest of the offense is performing. With a terrible offensive line and no running game to speak of I'd say that's a pretty big handicap.

I think you could make an argument that if Ben had an offensive line his stats would be better. But then again, I think people put too much stock into stats. The only stat that really matters is wins. And you can't argue that Ben wins games.

I mean take Drew Brees for example. Great stats, shit team. So what? I'd take a QB with shit stats that wins games over a QB who plays great on a losing team.

And I know that by saying that I'm not taking into account the team around him or the situation. But neither are you. Ben wins games for his team, he has since he came into the league. Carson Palmer puts up great numbers but sucks in pressure situations. Big deal.

Noooooooooooooooo. The steelers win games, its not Ben. It's their defense. If Brees was the Steelers quarterback he'd win games too.

I've argued this (ad naseum) before. I think saying "If ____ was the _____ quarterback" is a retarded argument to make.

If Peyton Manning or some other statue was the Steelers QB he'd be killed in a few weeks because of the terrible OLine.

[NobBe Nobbs]

The truth is always somewhere in the middle. Without Ben the Steelers wouldn't be 11-4. Without their defense they wouldn't be 11-4.

Without Ben, the Steelers would be...I don't know. Give him credit for the Baltimore win? Maybe another won? Call it 9-6.

Without the defense...they'd be 6-9. Probably worse.

Of course, you can't grasp alternative points of view, so this post may as well have read "blah blah ben sucks blah blah baltimore rocks blah blah i want ray lewis' mocha babies blah blah"

[Evil Chase K]

The truth is always somewhere in the middle. Without Ben the Steelers wouldn't be 11-4. Without their defense they wouldn't be 11-4.

Without Ben, the Steelers would be...I don't know. Give him credit for the Baltimore win? Maybe another won? Call it 9-6.

Without the defense...they'd be 6-9. Probably worse.

Of course, you can't grasp alternative points of view, so this post may as well have read "blah blah ben sucks blah blah baltimore rocks blah blah i want ray lewis' mocha babies blah blah"

And you wonder why you get warned.

I certainly can see that argument. But that doesn't take into account anything but Ben's stats. Stats which don't occur in a vacuum. Ben can't help that his OLine sucks. He can't help that he has maybe the worst offensive coordinator in the league. Those are things he can't control, yet somehow he's to blame for it?

Peyton Manning couldn't help it that he couldn't win in the playoffs until his defense finally showed up and played well. But he doesn't get shit for that.

Look back at 2005 and tell me Ben doesn't win games. Ben won the Colts and Broncos games with his arm. And he made big plays in the Super Bowl when he had to.

[naiwf]

Peyton Manning was declared one of the league's greatest chokers until his defense got good enough to win a Super Bowl. He was on his way to becoming a laughingstock with the atrocious games he'd play against Belichick's defenses every year. The SB that Ben won had nothing to do with him. The blind officials certainly had more to do with that victory than he did, but again it was the defense that carried them to the championship. Statistically speaking I think he had the second worst game of any "winning" QB, but yet again all you heard was that he was one of the youngest QBs ever to win a championship. While your O-line may not be great, surely the fact that he gets sacked about 3-4 times per game, throws about a pick a game and puts down a fumble per game has to fall on him to some degree. Every fan who has ever watched a Steelers game knows that he holds onto the ball for way too long and the vast majority of his big negative plays could have been avoided if he just threw the ball away. He's a game manager who mistakenly believes himself to be an elite QB and that's why he routinely plays so poorly against the top teams.

Edited December 21, 2008 by naiwf

[NobBe Nobbs]

And you wonder why you get warned.

No. I wonder why you don't get warned, this has got to be construed as flamebaiting by now.

[Maxx]

Yeah I've set to see anything Be or naiwf have said to you that would merit a warning. They're pointing out your inability to accept any other point of view besides your own, nothing more, and all you're doing it backing it up by not arguing the same point over and over and making excuses why every other point of view on the situation is wrong.

Compare that to how I view the Cowboys failures. I blamed everyone on the team, especially Romo. If I were like you are with Ben, I'd be saying its the offensive line's fault he that he has to scramble around and throw into double coverage, and its the recievers fault that they're in double coverage to begin with.

Thats what reading your posts defending Roethlisberger is like, glossing over every mistake he makes and finding someone else to blame it. You can do it with any player on any team, its natural to be defensive of players you really like, but you're still doing it, like it or not.

[alldaws1]

So Tampa Bay losing means Dallas has control of their own fate again? We have the tiebreaker over them so we're back into the 6th seed, 5th if Atlanta lose but that doesn't look likely. Regardless of whether Washington hold on against Philadelphia a win next week means Dallas is in unless the Vikes/Bears manage to mess things up, I'm not sure what our tiebreakers look like against the North teams though.

[Evil Chase K]

Peyton Manning was declared one of the league's greatest chokers until his defense got good enough to win a Super Bowl. He was on his way to becoming a laughingstock with the atrocious games he'd play against Belichick's defenses every year. The SB that Ben won had nothing to do with him. The blind officials certainly had more to do with that victory than he did, but again it was the defense that carried them to the championship. Statistically speaking I think he had the second worst game of any "winning" QB, but yet again all you heard was that he was one of the youngest QBs ever to win a championship. While your O-line may not be great, surely the fact that he gets sacked about 3-4 times per game, throws about a pick a game and puts down a fumble per game has to fall on him to some degree. Every fan who has ever watched a Steelers game knows that he holds onto the ball for way too long and the vast majority of his big negative plays could have been avoided if he just threw the ball away. He's a game manager who mistakenly believes himself to be an elite QB and that's why he routinely plays so poorly against the top teams.

Blind officials eh? I won't go there. It's been covered many many times. There was one bad call against the Seahawks and it was inconsequential.

The 2005 Super Bowl had everything to do with Ben as they don't even get there without him.

Ben holds the ball too long, yes I get it. But I don't know how many times he sort of doesn't have a choice. If he can't scramble and has no open receivers he really doesn't have a choice.

Earlier in the season Ben was rattled. Since the San Diego game he's been better. Made better decisions, limited turnovers, got rid of the ball quicker. Again a lot of Ben's problems would be rectified with a better line and better playcalling. An OC who plays to his strengths instead of against them would help a LOT.

Ben's not a game manager. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Ben's a gunslinger. He'll make boneheaded plays that will piss you off, and he'll make boneheaded plays that work and make you cheer. The same thing that pisses Steelers fans off about Ben is the same thing we love about him. With any other QB on this team we'd go nowhere. If others can't see it, oh well. But that's how it is.

And you wonder why you get warned.

No. I wonder why you don't get warned, this has got to be construed as flamebaiting by now.

I guess it could be. But at the same time I'm only replying when you act like a troll.

But arguing about it is stupid so I'll stop.

[IAceI]

Landry's big hit against Reggie Brown seals our 10-3 victory over Philadelphia. With Atlanta's win we're out of the play offs, which sucks because we had such a good first half to the season and we'd played our hardest divisional matches (all away) and had our home stretch left but we lost 2 out of 3 of them.

Still, a win next week and we finish with a winning record which for Zorn's first season as coach and JC finally learning hopefully his permanent system I have to be happy. We overachieved early on but if we can finish 9-7 well then I think we've done a good job.

[naiwf]

If the Eagles beat the Cowboys next week neither team will make the playoffs if Tampa Bay wins. I'd LOVE for that to happen and it's entirely possible too. Finally, congrats to the Vick-less Falcons for making the playoffs. Who knew that getting rid of the most overrated player in the history of the NFL would lead to something positive?

Also, LOL at the Jets and Broncos for throwing away their postseason aspirations against teams with nothing to play for.

[Evil Chase K]

So what's the deal with the AFC East?