Champions League Season 2007/2008

[Pesci]

With me it's not really that I'm happy to settle for 4th or anything, but I can see that Rafa's improving things, with signings like Mascherano, Torres and Babel, who looks set to be fantastic once he reaches his peak. Under Houllier's reign we just couldn't attract players of that quality and were never going to challenge Man United. Then Abramovich kinda threw a spanner in the works and made Chelsea a force and we seem further off the pace because of it... well, we are further off the pace because of it. The team we've got now is a lot stronger than I've probably ever seen (in the time I've been alive that is), definitely better than at any point during Houllier's reign and if Rafa isn't challenging for the title in the next few years, sure, he's not doing his job well, but being that United and Chelsea have acres of depth and Arsenal have had a lucky run (), I'm willing to accept doing well in one competition for now. It's not as if the Champions League is the League Cup either.

[therockbox]

Considering you can't perform on a 38 week basis, are out of the title chase by March most seasons, and can focus on the Champions League, then I don't think its as big a deal as it could be.

League form has no bearing on how well you do in the CL. If it did then Man United's record in recent years wouldn't be so average.

If Arsenal had beaten you, or if Chelsea knock you out in the Semi's, you will end up taking very little from the season. It becomes an 'all eggs in one basket' type scenario.

True, but I can think of worse baskets to put your eggs in. Besides, we didn't go out to Arsenal and we haven't even played Chelsea yet.

They are a far off fourth this season, have drifted around the 3rd, 4th and 5th position over the past years, and domestic success should surely take precedent over European....surely?

As I said in my last post, Hicks admitted that Rafa would have been sacked if we'd have lost to Marseille. The game before that was against Reading, our first defeat of the season, in which he brought off Torres, Gerrard and Carragher. It's all very well and good to say he should be prioritising the league, but when he's being told by the owners of the club that the CL is effectively more important then it puts thins into perspective.

I mean, the Champions League is big, has a lot of money, yadda yadda yadda, but if I was a fan of one of the big four, I'd take a Premiership win over the Champions League, personally.

The majority of footballers/ex-players think otherwise. Against Arsenal I didn't hear one Liverpool fan saying they'd rather still be challenging for the league.

The Champions League victory should have been used as a springboard to get things right in the league, and yeah, Liverpool are making progress, but there is little that suggests to me that they'll be up there and challenging for the title next season.

I honestly don't see how you can say winning the Champions League should have moved us closer to winning the title. The squad that won it that season was shit, and it needed a massive overhaul regardless of what we achieved. With the exception of Gerrard, Alonso, Carragher and arguably Hyypia (who we had to replace in the next season anyway) we needed new players almost all over the pitch.

Don't get me wrong, Liverpool have done well, it just beggars belief that they don't do much of note in the Premiership. And that Liverpool fans will seemingly settle for European success when you haven't won the Premiership/First Division since 1990.

It's hardly surprising. The Liverpool job has been a 'wallpaper over the cracks' type task ever since Souness, but now we've got a manager that is probably undertaking the biggest upheavel the club (not squad) has seen since Bill Shankly. It's not that we're settling for European success at all, it's just that we'd rather get to a stage where we can challenge for it every year as opposed to doing a Blackburn; winning it once and then falling away into nothing. If we happen to win a couple of (massive) trophies on the way to getting there then what's the problem?

[Liam]

Fair enough.

You just worry that if more sustained success, across the board, doesn't come soon, Benitez could be under even more pressure, and all the team building goes for nowt.

Kinda like Wenger now that Arsenal have gone trophy-less this season.

[therockbox]

Yeah, obviously if we suddenly come to a complete standstill in the league then he'll go, but as long as we keep showing signs of progress then he'll stay. I know that "IT'S OUR YEAR!" has become a recurring joke used against Liverpool fans, the majority of us know we're still way behind Man United and Chelsea. Unfortunately there are a minority of idiots that think the opposite, and they're usually the plastics that jump on the phone to TalkSport/606 everyone time we concede a goal.

I do think this season in terms of our league position would have been extremely different if it hadn't been for the Hicks/Gillett saga though, although unfortunately it seems that the big Texan cunt has decided to get his spanner ready again.

Edited April 10, 2008 by therockbox

[erperro]

Definitely, Manchester is gonna kick Barça's ass

Ronaldinho hasn't done nothing since January, and now is injured for 6 weeks. Henry just suck. Bojan who is 17, is carrying the team. Eto'o has been good, but not that good.

[Crybaby Bunting]

Messi?

I mean the Barce team at the moment is almost certainly capable of equaling Manchester if not defeating them on a good day. Should be a cracking match/s.

[brenchill]

Messi's injured apparently. But he might be back for the games against Man Utd.

[Lord Nibbler]

I mean, the Champions League is big, has a lot of money, yadda yadda yadda, but if I was a fan of one of the big four, I'd take a Premiership win over the Champions League, personally.

The majority of footballers/ex-players think otherwise. Against Arsenal I didn't hear one Liverpool fan saying they'd rather still be challenging for the league.

Of course Liverpool fans are going to say they'd rather be in the Champions League than the title race, now that the latter isn't a possibility. Deep down, everyone Liverpool fan and player (at least the ones that have been at the club long enough) want to win the Premier League after 18 years of domestic failure. Steven Gerrard has said that he feels the fans would rather they win the league than the Champions League. It takes a lot of luck to win the Champions League, and that's why it should be seen as a luxury.

I don't think any Liverpool fan can look at this season as being successful. How much did Benitez spend on players? £60m? Yet despite that, and despite having the league's second top goalscorer, you were out of the title race before the New Year. In the six games against the top three this season, Liverpool took 3 points.

I honestly don't see how you can say winning the Champions League should have moved us closer to winning the title. The squad that won it that season was shit, and it needed a massive overhaul regardless of what we achieved. With the exception of Gerrard, Alonso, Carragher and arguably Hyypia (who we had to replace in the next season anyway) we needed new players almost all over the pitch.

Benitez did have to overhaul the team, but has he done a good job? Torres is obviously a great buy, but it's the only great buy I can think of since Benitez joined. Reina, Mascherano and Alonso are all good first-team players, but then he's spent a fair amount of money on players who are squad players at best (Pennant, Benayoun etc.) and about £40m on players who aren't even at the club any more.

[brenchill]

My opinion on Liverpool is that in the past few seasons they've had to really overhaul the squad because to be fair the players haven't been good enough. Yes, Benitez spent alot of money in the summer and overall they haven't had a good season but next season we'll see the benefits of what he spent. This summer Benetiez hasn't got to go out and sign five or six players he just needs to add a few more quality players to strengthen in certain areas.

I can't see them catching Man Utd just yet. But they aren't too far from Arsenal and Chelsea. And from there, who knows.

Edited April 10, 2008 by Animal Mother

[Hobo]

It's hardly surprising. The Liverpool job has been a 'wallpaper over the cracks' type task ever since Souness, but now we've got a manager that is probably undertaking the biggest upheavel the club (not squad) has seen since Bill Shankly. It's not that we're settling for European success at all, it's just that we'd rather get to a stage where we can challenge for it every year as opposed to doing a Blackburn; winning it once and then falling away into nothing. If we happen to win a couple of (massive) trophies on the way to getting there then what's the problem?

This pretty much sums it up. We don't have the depth to compete with Man Utd or Chelsea. One season of money doesn't mean success (take Chelsea in Abramovich's first year, or Aston Villa). And bringing in so many players does mean that we won't see the fruits of them for another year. Torres I'll grant you adjusted right away more or less, but others took some time to settle. But they've been great additions. Like Mascherano, Leva, Arbeloa etc. Skertel is already looking great. It's still a work in progress it's just that it's LIVERPOOL, the most successful English team ever there is an aura about the club that really spent about a decade in the doldrums. But if anyone can doubt that a club that has in this decade have one everything BUT the league. But winning the league and winning a cup isn't the same thing but it's better than nothing. I'd love to see us win the title for a 19th time but thats a long haul thing.

[brenchill]

This pretty much sums it up. We don't have the depth to compete with Man Utd or Chelsea. One season of money doesn't mean success (take Chelsea in Abramovich's first year, or Aston Villa).

How can you put Villa in the same bracket as Chelsea?

[therockbox]

Deep down, everyone Liverpool fan and player (at least the ones that have been at the club long enough) want to win the Premier League after 18 years of domestic failure.

You ignored the part where I said that the majority of Liverpool fans want to be in a position to win it every year rather than once every decade.

It takes a lot of luck to win the Champions League, and that's why it should be seen as a luxury.

It takes some luck, but not "a lot." I know Man United fans like to pretend it does because it masks their numerous failures and capitulations over the years, but it takes just as much skill as it does luck.

I don't think any Liverpool fan can look at this season as being successful. How much did Benitez spend on players? £60m? Yet despite that, and despite having the league's second top goalscorer, you were out of the title race before the New Year.

It hasn't finished yet though, has it? If we finished fourth but win the CL, whereas Chelsea (or United) finished second but win nothing, who has had the most successful season?

And just because he spent a certain amount of money doesn't mean the squad has improved by that much. This is the first season where he's been able to go out and buy without having to sell (although our net spend this season was around £25million).

Benitez did have to overhaul the team, but has he done a good job? Torres is obviously a great buy, but it's the only great buy I can think of since Benitez joined. Reina, Mascherano and Alonso are all good first-team players...

Mascherano was a great buy, one of the best midfielders in the world at his age bracket. Agger was amazing in his first full season, he's been a big miss. Babel, again, is extremely highly rated, as is Lucas. Reina has, statistically, been one of the best keepers in the league since he arrived. I know the usual retort to that is "well it's because of the defence", but apparantly our defence is crap as well (but only when discussing that as an extension of the question 'is Carragher any good?')

... but then he's spent a fair amount of money on players who are squad players at best (Pennant, Benayoun etc.) and about £40m on players who aren't even at the club any more.

Players like Pennant and Benayoun were second choices because we couldn't afford our first choices, and neither of them would have played as much had Alves/Simao been affordable. Benitez has had a high squad turnover, but the majority of players he's bought and then sold off quickly have been sold at a minimal loss or, in the majority of cases, a profit. The only player that we actually made a big loss on was Morientes, and I don't think anyone would have expected that.

As an addition to the last point, it's also nice to have a manger that gets rid of players once it becomes clear they're not good enough for their role, whether it's as a squad player or a first choice. It's a far cry from the days of holding onto players like Le Tallec, Diao, Biscan and Traore to try and prove a point.

I know for non-Liverpool fans it's difficult to look at the situation beyond the first team, but he's also improved almost every other aspect of the club. Our reserve team has just won the league, with an average age of 21/22 and filled with players brought in under Benitez. He's overhauled the scouting system and we're now starting to follow the Arsenal model, with our youth team also winning competitions (two FA Youth Cups on the bounce).

[Lord Nibbler]

I don't think any Liverpool fan can look at this season as being successful. How much did Benitez spend on players? £60m? Yet despite that, and despite having the league's second top goalscorer, you were out of the title race before the New Year.

It hasn't finished yet though, has it? If we finished fourth but win the CL, whereas Chelsea (or United) finished second but win nothing, who has had the most successful season?

Liverpool's season so far has been disappointing, and managing to win the Champions League won't change any of that. Liverpool didn't exactly blaze through opponent in the Champions League. They barely got out of the group stages, and progressed past the knockout stages with some help from the referees . Winning the Champions League won't mean the team is any better, or more equipped to challenge for the Premiership, than it was last season. A team that can win in Europe but can't beat its neighbours is not a strong team. Unless domestic performances improve there's a real danger that they may not even qualify for Europe in the coming seasons. It's not even like Rafa has them playing good football.

And just because he spent a certain amount of money doesn't mean the squad has improved by that much. This is the first season where he's been able to go out and buy without having to sell (although our net spend this season was around £25million).

£25m? You made about £25m from selling Bellamy (£7.5m), Luis Garcia (£2.7m), Cisse (£6m) and Sissoko (£10m), but that's cancelled out by the Torres deal. Then you have £11.5m on Babel, £5m on Benayoun, £6m on Skrtel and £17m on Mascherano. I make that a net spend of about £40m.

As for not being to buy without selling, how much did you make last season on outgoing transfers? £2m for Djimi Traore, less than that for Stephen Warnock. You bought Arbeloa for £2.5m, Pennant for almost £7m, Kuyt for £10m.

He hasn't had the same kind of money as United or Chelsea, but that's because Liverpool don't have a sugar daddy and have won just one major trophy in 18 years. Even if you overlook his patchy transfer record, tactically I don't think he's going to win Liverpool the Premiership title they crave.

[therockbox]

Before I get started I'll say this is where I got my numbers for transfers from. It's pretty much the best place you'll find everything in one place.

Liverpool's season so far has been disappointing, and managing to win the Champions League won't change any of that.

Rubbish. League wise it will have been disappointing, but I'd much rather win the CL and finish fourth as opposed to finishing second and winning nothing.

Liverpool didn't exactly blaze through opponent in the Champions League. They barely got out of the group stages, and progressed past the knockout stages with some help from the referees

We were poor in the first three games, but that coincided with out best ever start to a Premiership campaign. It only turned around when Hicks said Rafa would be sacked if we didn't get out of the group stage. He gets criticised for prioritising Europe, but when he then seems to put more emphasis on the league he.. gets criticised? Fantastic logic.

Winning the Champions League won't mean the team is any better, or more equipped to challenge for the Premiership, than it was last season. A team that can win in Europe but can't beat its neighbours is not a strong team. Unless domestic performances improve there's a real danger that they may not even qualify for Europe in the coming seasons.

I agree. I even argued that earlier. Still doesn't mean winning it, or reaching three semi-finals in four years can be dismissed though.

And the only one of our four direct rivals we've failed to beat this season are Man United. We've not lost to Arsenal or Chelsea in the league this season, which is a massive improvement over the last couple of years. We were the better team against Chelsea in both games as well, and probably would have won at Stamford Bridge if Torres had been fit to play. To me that shows we're not that far away from being able to beat those around us, we just don't have enough match winners, which is something we are now trying to rectify with the signings of Torres and Babel.

It's not even like Rafa has them playing good football.

Arsenal play 'good football' but they've won nothing in four years.

£25m? You made about £25m from selling Bellamy (£7.5m), Luis Garcia (£2.7m), Cisse (£6m) and Sissoko (£10m), but that's cancelled out by the Torres deal. Then you have £11.5m on Babel, £5m on Benayoun, £6m on Skrtel and £17m on Mascherano. I make that a net spend of about £40m.

As for not being to buy without selling, how much did you make last season on outgoing transfers? £2m for Djimi Traore, less than that for Stephen Warnock. You bought Arbeloa for £2.5m, Pennant for almost £7m, Kuyt for £10m.

Garcia went for £4million, and you missed Gonzalez off (£3.5million). Torres cost £20million, not the £26m that seems to have become fact.

I didn't include the January transfers (incoming or outgoing) in my net spend because the players coming in had no bearing on our league position until then. That being said I don't think it's coincidence that we've improved since Skrtel came into the side. Actually having a defender that can run faster than a tank tends to be an advantage. For the record, these are the overall figures I used:

In:

Spoiler: Click here to view

Lucas Leiva - £5,000,000

Sebastian Leto - £1,800,000

Fernando Torres - £20,200,000

Andriy Voronin - Free

Yossi Benayoun - £5,000,000

Ryan Babel - £11,500,000

Charles Itandje - Undisclosed (rumoured to be around £2m)

Emiliano Insúa - £1,300,000

Total: £46.8

Out:

Spoiler: Click here to view

Robbie Fowler - Free

Boudewijn Zenden - Free

Jerzy Dudek - Free

Luis Garcia - £4,000,000

Djibril Cissé - £6,000,000

Craig Bellamy - £7,500,000

Mark Gonzalez - £3,500,000

Gabriel Paletta - £1,200,000 (we get 50% of his next transfer fee)

Total: £22.2million

Net Spend: £24.6million

I'll concede it does hit the £40million mark when you include Masch, although strictly speaking that signing wasn't concluded until February - and after Hicks and Gillett had refinanced. Being extremely cynical I think his signing was nothing more than an attempt to appease the fans by Hicks, I honestly don't think he'd have signed permanently if it wasn't for the protests against H&G. But even though it does hit £40m, this is a figure Man United have been spending for a number of years (not to mention Chelsea ridiculous spending under Mourinho or Arsenal's decade-old youth policy). We're still playing catch-up.

The season before that you missed Morientes (£3m), Barragan & Mellor (£1.2m combined), Kirkland (3.5m) and Pongolle (£2.7m). Our net spend was roughly £12m.

He hasn't had the same kind of money as United or Chelsea, but that's because Liverpool don't have a sugar daddy and have won just one major trophy in 18 years.

This is true, although it eventually became a vicious circle. We didn't capitalise on our popularity the way Man United did when we were one of the most popular teams in the world. We just couldn't keep up under Moores and Rick Parry ("sorry Stevie, well have sort out your contract when I'm back from holiday").

That one major trophy was won by Rafa as well. He shouldn't be judged on what Souness, Evans and Houllier couldn't achieve.

[Scott McFly]

Is Anelka cup-tied for Chelsea?

EDIT: Scrap that, he's on the bench I've just noticed.

Edited April 22, 2008 by Scott McFly

[brenchill]

No you're allowed to play in the UEFA Cup and Champions League for different clubs.

[Hobo]

KUYT!

[The Quasi Juice]

That guy is a fucking workhorse.

[brenchill]

Bruce Grobbelaar seems to have morphed into a Rafa Benitez lookalike.

[ONO]

Malouda absent for most of the game as usual.