Official NFL 2007 Thread

[HailtotheYo]

The Numbers

Since I know you probably won't actually take the few seconds to find the numbers on the site, I'll give you an example. Rhein's 10 game regular season schedule drew 219K and 201K in '05 and '06 respectively. Do the simple division there and what do you get ? The att. figures are there from '02 on I believe for all the teams. Again, take a second and look. Don't believe that, check Wiki ... they've got the last three years avg att for the teams.

Firstly, we, the fans in Europe care that a league being marketed as being based in an entire continent is actually jsut catering for one country (which already has a pretty strong semi-pro league).

That's fair enough, but then again there's a difference between semi-pro, and a league with NFL ties isn't there ? Yes, there is. In fairness to the league though, it has had teams all over the continent.

And if teams were drawing audiences that large on a regular basis, do you really think they'd be folding or moving to Germany?

See above, click the link, and fint out for yourself that they were. Of course, part of the problem with the teams early on was the lack of stadium commitments. Hard to play when you don't know if the stadium will be available when you have a game schedule. That's part of the biggest reason that the London/England team went by the wayside. Not only that, but the stadium in London (White Hart Lane) was only 93 yds long .... the game needs at LEAST 120 to be played. This thing was a business after all. There were SEVERAL variables that went into teams folding. Barca pulled out its sponsorhip, that's why the Dragons folded.

And it wasn't really well known, it was a bitch to find games on TV, it was tricky even to find coverage outside of nfluk.com. It was a good idea, but the lack of commitment, patience and publicity meant the fans got sick of everything being switched up and messed around, and we lost interest.

And that's entirely the league's fault ? Sure, marketing has to be done but if local television/radio/papers won't cover ... or relegate coverage to minimal what is the league to do ? The commitment was there from the NFL. Hell, it bought the league out and ran it the last couple of years.

And there were like 5 foreign players in the league. Yeah, a fair few yanks got called up to the NFL, so I guess as a developmental thing it worked ok, but the quality of football was laughable at times.

quote from this article ... article

"In our biggest game, the Super Bowl, 14 ex-NFL Europe players were on the combined rosters. In fact, the first four players to touch the ball in super bowl XXXVI got their start in NFL Europe, as Adam Vinitieri kicked off to Yo Murphy, and then Andy McCollum snapped to Kurt Warner."

Yeah, that was just in '02. It was enormous as a development league ... which oh by the way, was its purpose. You were expecting something wonderful though ... yeah, that'd be the moron thing to do. Oh, and each team had to have a minimum of 5 "national" players on its roster at all times. So there were at least 5 per team, let alone in the league.

You really just shouldn't post when you don't know what you're on about...but then, I doubt we'd rarely hear from you if that were the case.

Ditto. I mean seriously, you don't have a clue on this one. I'm sure you'll try something to say something else but clearly you don't know what the fuck you're talking about on this. But, you'll try anyway though and that'll be good for a laugh.

[Cactus Drags]

The Numbers

Since I know you probably won't actually take the few seconds to find the numbers on the site, I'll give you an example. Rhein's 10 game regular season schedule drew 219K and 201K in '05 and '06 respectively. Do the simple division there and what do you get ? The att. figures are there from '02 on I believe for all the teams. Again, take a second and look. Don't believe that, check Wiki ... they've got the last three years avg att for the teams.

Edited February 2, 2008 by Dragsy 7-0

[HailtotheYo]

Rhein is in fucking Germany, genius. I'd look up London's attendance compared with England's, but I can't find them on that shitstain of a site. All I could find was capacity.

Congrats on knowning your geography. See, that's why I said EXAMPLE. Barcelona was drawing an avg of 18K its final year, and Amsterdam regularly drew 15K.

All over Europe is a bit of a stretch (no French, Italian, Scandanavian or Eastern bloc teams for example), but yeah, to start with there was a fair representation I guess.

In '04 the league had a team in England, Spain, Holland, and Scotland to go with the German teams.

Yes, it's the league's fault! There was no commitment to keep teams where they were and building up an identity and fanbase. There was fuck all publicity other than the odd mention in First Down or on Sky or Five (Mike Carlson namechecking former NFL-E players doesn't really count though). Media didn't cover it because if the parent company doesn't give a shit, why should they?

I can't really agree that the NFL didn't give a shit. It made a 30 million dollar annual investment. I'd say that's giving a shit. The overall investment was in the 400 to 500 million dollar range. Again, that's giving a shit. It's one thing to blame marketing by the league, and that one I already gave you. Hell, the NFL HAD to pull the team out of London/England. Att was falling each year DESPITE the NFL putting a team in Scotland to build a rivalry. It was the falling att and stadium issues with Wembley that caused the team to be moved around England. Again, local coverage of the team doesn't fall solely on the NFL. Not saying that they did, but even if they had pushed the shit out of the team, it wasn't going anywhere if local tv won't give it a mention. Besides, how can you blame them for shifting all the teams to Germany ? That was simple business. You go where the fans are. In the end, they where in Germany. I bet if you look at the tv/radio/paper coverage of the league in Germany as opposed to the rest of the teams that were in Europe you'll see one hell of a difference. Hell, the league saw its record att for the year in '07 .... when five teams were in Germany.

I acknowledged that a fair few players ended up in the NFL. As a developmental league, yeah fine - it doesn't get more "wonderful" than an NFL-E product leading his team to the Superbowl - but you were talking about developing support for American football in Europe. Fail. And how much playing time do you think those national players saw?

You honestly think that there hasn't been a change in support for American football in Europe since the league started ? That's either ignorance, or you being stupid just for the sake of it. Did NFL Europe set the "world" on fire and end up being the great ambassador that the NFL had hoped ? No. Did it spread the game, arouse interest, and gain further acceptability for the sport ? Absolutely. The point of the national players was to help spread the game, not feature them as superstars. The national players were the guys that coached at schools/semi pro teams and that kind of crap in the offseason. The league was a professional minor league for the NFL, not a showcase of the best national talent in Europe. The NFL found a level of inclusion of national players that worked for the NFL. Again, if anyone was thinking anything different and expected more than that ..... yeah.

To be honest, I shouldn't expect you to really understand, as you're not living over here. But at least try not to come across as a smarmy, know-it-all cunt when you're trying to make a point.

EDIT: Just to add, obviously I don't expect the quality of the american game, but some amateur games I've been to were more entertaining.

I can say the same for you. Living over there, you couldn't possibly understand the whole picture either. As for how I posted, what the fuck do you expect when your first line in your post is you trying to swing your dick in the air like anyone gives a shit ? Even in the first post I made, I stated things that were fact. I'm sorry that they weren't to your liking, but oh fucking well.

Oh, and just because I find plenty of MLS games more exciting than the games involving Premiership sides that play over here to get ready for the Premiership season, I don't think that the league is a joke. I take it for what it's supposed to be. You didn't expect the same quality, but were sure to point out more than once that it wasn't there. Yeah, you can't play it both ways.

[Cactus Drags]

Moving sall the teams to Germany does not build awareness of teh sport throughout the continent.

NFL Europe did virtually fuck all to increase interest. Sky Sports probably did more (at least in the UK). and you're comparing MLS games to preseason games with good teams, that's not even relevant. These guys are supposed to be professionals, regardless of whether they're in a developmental league. The quality of football should be better than an amateur league. I'm not saying that was the case for every game.

I don't know why you're listing where the teams were from in '04, I'm well aware. And that's still not overly representative of Europe as a whole, but as I said, it wasn't bad.

I'd pretty much guarantee that if they picked a fucking stadium and stuck with it, there'd have been less trouble with the Monarachs attendance, whoever signed off on the touring idea was a tool.

And how are you attributing the growth of the sport over here to NFL-E? Is there some kind of survey going around I'm not aware of? Because as far as I'm aware, most people over here got into the sport through Channel 4 in the eighties, and it's passed on to their friends or their kids. I'd also say the college and amateur leagues did their fair share in garnering interest. Not forgetting of course, the Superbowl, that's how a fair few of my friends got into it, just catching it to see what the fuss was about. And most people I've talked to about American Football didn't have a clue that there was a european developmental league, nor that there was even an English team.

[alldaws1]

Att was falling each year DESPITE the NFL putting a team in Scotland to build a rivalry.

Despite? Putting a team in Scotland is probably a big part of what caused the decrease in attendance. Rather than come down to see the London team play, people from up north and in Scotland can just go see the Claymores instead.

[gunnar hendershow]

Rogers and Tannenbaum will stop at nothing to bring a team to Toronto - and they have more access to money than perhaps any two people in Canada.

I'm really not sure where all this talk of the Bills having a "strong following" around here comes from...it seems like the casual fan will support just about any team. But there are figures showing Canadians making up a substantial amount of Bills' attendance, so I guess that has to be some support there.

And the worst part of this news is that it signifies the beginning of the end for the CFL. With Rogers and BCE putting heavy advertising into the eventual Toronto NFL team, the CFL would look second-rate by comparison, and for that reason will be held off any of their TV properties...

The CFL does benefit from not being played at the exact same time, their seasons don't entirely overlap. It will affect the league, but won't be a nail in its coffin or anything.

Also, the real question now is whether a team will move to Toronto (Buffalo seems the likeliest, but there will be such a push to keep the team in Buffalo I don't see it happening in a post-Cleveland move NFL) or if NFL will open another era of expansion. I don't see how they could go bigger than 32 teams without adopting a European style of tiers. But American audiences would likely have a tough time really grabbing onto the tiers. Ideally, I'd like to see Arizona move to Toronto. But since they just got their new stadium, who cares that they don't sell out games?

[Maxx]

Seriously people, just ignore Hail, you'll save yourself time, frustration and brain cells. He's a twat from Texas who thinks he knows more about European's perspective on things than ACTUAL EUROPEANS. Just ignore what he says, he deserves that much for not even being able to use their, there and they're properly.

Edited February 2, 2008 by Maxx

[Guest Mr. Potato Head]

Rogers and Tannenbaum will stop at nothing to bring a team to Toronto - and they have more access to money than perhaps any two people in Canada.

I'm really not sure where all this talk of the Bills having a "strong following" around here comes from...it seems like the casual fan will support just about any team. But there are figures showing Canadians making up a substantial amount of Bills' attendance, so I guess that has to be some support there.

And the worst part of this news is that it signifies the beginning of the end for the CFL. With Rogers and BCE putting heavy advertising into the eventual Toronto NFL team, the CFL would look second-rate by comparison, and for that reason will be held off any of their TV properties...

The CFL does benefit from not being played at the exact same time, their seasons don't entirely overlap. It will affect the league, but won't be a nail in its coffin or anything.

Also, the real question now is whether a team will move to Toronto (Buffalo seems the likeliest, but there will be such a push to keep the team in Buffalo I don't see it happening in a post-Cleveland move NFL) or if NFL will open another era of expansion. I don't see how they could go bigger than 32 teams without adopting a European style of tiers. But American audiences would likely have a tough time really grabbing onto the tiers. Ideally, I'd like to see Arizona move to Toronto. But since they just got their new stadium, who cares that they don't sell out games?

[NobBe Nobbs]

I'm reminded of another king who had similar opinions, although that one decreed foreign fans were actually not fans at all. Maybe that's why he was the king.

[JStarr]

Seriously people, just ignore Hail, you'll save yourself time, frustration and brain cells. He's a twat from Texas who thinks he knows more about European's perspective on things than ACTUAL EUROPEANS. Just ignore what he says, he deserves that much for not even being able to use their, there and they're properly.

Maxx, contribute to the discussion or stay out of it. And no, personal attacks on people are not contributing.

[Cactus Drags]

You should issue that warning to Hailtotheking, he's clearly not contributing with his nonsensical ramblings ¬_¬

[JStarr]

You should issue that warning to Hailtotheking, he's clearly not contributing with his nonsensical ramblings ¬_¬

Rhein is in fucking Germany, genius. I'd look up London's attendance compared with England's, but I can't find them on that shitstain of a site. All I could find was capacity.

England Attendance--1998:

v. Frankfurt--6500

v. Rhein--5523

v. Scotland--6246

v. Amsterdam--6235

v. Barcelona--5215

London Attendance--1997:

v. Frankfurt--10719

v. Barcelona--10110

v. Scotland--11210

v. Amsterdam--9150

v. Rhein--10462

London Attendance--1996:

v. Scotland--16258

v. Barcelona--13627

v. Frankfurt--10764

v. Amsterdam--11048

v. Rhein--11125

London Attendance--1995:

v. Frankfurt--28021

v. Rhein--15892

v. Scotland--10481

v. Barcelona--18850

v. Amsterdam--8469

The figures are all straight off that "shitstain" of a site that he linked to. He's provided facts for this discussion, which you tried to act like you looked for. You've got a European perspective to draw from. Fair enough. You've both got something to back up your points. That said, I'm not sure either of you is less "nonsensical" than the other. It's fucking NFL Europa, and why exactly do we give a shit?

[Cactus Drags]

It's a shitstain because it's awfully designed, not because it's inaccurate. I care because he's putting across a point of view that just blatantly isn't true.

And I refuse to refer to it as NFL Europa, I have absolutely no idea why they'd do that.

[alldaws1]

It's fucking NFL Europa, and why exactly do we give a shit?

You may not, because you live in a country that has the main league running in it. We don't, it was the closest thing we had for years.

[oldskool]

Enough debating, it's party time. Art Monk just got in.

[Hajjhowe]

Chris Carter not making it in is a fucking joke.

[Pepsi]

Chris Carter not making it in is a fucking joke.

Edited February 2, 2008 by Pepsi

[oldskool]

Pff. CRIS Carter.

All he did was catch touchdowns.

[JStarr]

Enough debating, it's party time. Art Monk just got in.

About damn time. And Darrell Green...was this his first year? If it's not, then at least the voters finally put down the crackpipes and got him in.

Nice to see Gary Zimmerman getting in. Randall McDaniel should follow shortly. Ray Guy may have to resort to blackmail. Just wondering how long it's gonna take Tagliabue.

[oldskool]

I believe it was Green's first year but I'm not positive.