The Mafia Discussion Thread

[Ruki]

Oddly enough, TEOL was thinking about bringing it back yesterday.

[TEOL]

Oddly enough, I mentioned it to MPH too.

[DMN in the House]

Oddly enough, I'd be more than down for one. I've really lost a lot of enthusiasm for typical EWB mafia play with my recent turn as Ganondorf. I played exactly like I ALWAYS do as town, and still got lynched because people would rather follow an investigator than their own thoughts.

[Pesci]

Not oddly at all, I'd love another TradMaf. Hop to it

[Guest Mr. Potato Head]

Oddly enough, I'd be more than down for one. I've really lost a lot of enthusiasm for typical EWB mafia play with my recent turn as Ganondorf. I played exactly like I ALWAYS do as town, and still got lynched because people would rather follow an investigator than their own thoughts.

Yet you're one of the chief proponents for lynching me in Jobber Mafia for doing just that.

[TEOL]

Anyway, I'm torn between running straight up Trad Maf or doing another experimental one, I've got a couple of ideas that could be interesting and possibly even fun.

[thuganomic]

Gotham's also in the planning stages. Let's hope I can flesh out the DC Universe even more this time around.

[Guest Mr. Potato Head]

Maybe this time I'll be The Joker and able to convince everyone I'm on their side

[Ace]

I have to admit, even though I came in late and was sold out by MPH, reading back and watching him play the ENTIRE TOWN was a thing of absolute beauty.

[Pesci]

I reread yesterday, I was a lot more suspicious of him throughout than I first thought. I played pretty much the perfect game apart from lynching LD and investigating Ruki after I was already pretty sure he was town. Every time MPH tried to vote off GoGo or SSTB I was pretty much the one who stopped him. Go me.

Edited July 23, 2008 by Pesci

[Steeb]

Oddly enough, I'd be more than down for one. I've really lost a lot of enthusiasm for typical EWB mafia play with my recent turn as Ganondorf. I played exactly like I ALWAYS do as town, and still got lynched because people would rather follow an investigator than their own thoughts.

You don't normally play badly as town, I think you played a very dodgy game in Smash, so yeah, that explains why I wouldn't buy in.

[Pleatherface]

There's been quite a bit of talk lately of people relying on investigators, but I don't believe that's true. People seem to consult their investigators only as a guide rather than someone with actual information, Chikara mafia is the most recent example I can find, where-in Ruki calmly states there's a cult and reveals a cultist's identity and it's ignored completely in favor of me who is an admitted and easy lynch.

While, that is the simplest of solutions, it's not the most productive. A cult leader as proven a few times before by DMN and myself in Food Mafia may become a Hero if they reach a certain amount of recruits, pretty much guaranteeing the town a loss unless they get lucky, and any chance they have for a win can be easily marred with paranoia and back tracking.

A cult is much more dangerous than a mafia, just on the fact that they CAN become way over powered, very quickly.

Another example in my mind of a similiar incident is Jobber Mafia the first.. Where-in GoGo an all but proven townie who I believe if not an actual investigator was at the very least responsible for several scummie lynches is murdered thanks to a townie falsely and knowingly starting his lynch despite protests, and the town jumping on board.

I don't believe there is an over-reliance on investigators that causes the death of innocent players, or even takes the fun away from the game, for the most part EWB's biggest mafia problem is that many people including myself don't apply common sense to the game, which allows smarter or in some cases much more unintelligent players to lead the lynches, often despite evidence.

I support the idea of traditional maf returning, mostly because it will force good players to sharpen their skills and not act like bumps on logs, and it will require less skilled players to contribute or be the victims of random lynches.

Sadly, though this too will do little to help the situation around here unless people start actually thinking in these games, an abundance of investigators hasn't ruined us.. An abundance of folks like me has, to the point where good players don't try and simply follow the advice of whoever is vocal, and where newbs make wild unbased guesses that see people die needlessly.

I do hope that Traditional Mafia is what this board is missing and that it can solve our collective slump, somehow though I can't help but doubt it, and fear that the problem runs much deeper than roles.

Sorry, kinda went off there.. I ramble but I think there's a point in there somewhere, anyway someone needs to run a game and make everything better.. Like now.

[Sousa]

Another example in my mind of a similiar incident is Jobber Mafia the first.. Where-in GoGo an all but proven townie who I believe if not an actual investigator was at the very least responsible for several scummie lynches is murdered thanks to a townie falsely and knowingly starting his lynch despite protests, and the town jumping on board.

But that just proves the other point. GoGo was lynched because D-Extreme got opposite results and GoGo came up scum. The town relied on its minor investigator too much and lost one of their best players as a result--and then, of course, they jumped right on a D-Extreme bandwagon the very next day despite the fact that it was pretty obvious he'd just made a mistake. And the town had also latched onto MEG as a primary investigator even though he was a scum investigator, and the game was over really quickly after that.

Yeah, overreliance on investigators actually lost that game for the town in a big way. It's pretty much a textbook example of what TEOL is talking about: when the town perceived it had no reliable investigator, it also floundered and had no real leader. When MEG stepped up as an investigator, the town was willing to follow him without question, and he even got protected for many of the last few nights.

So yeah, bad, bad way to invoke that game.

[TEOL]

Also, Ruki's play in CHIKARA Mafia (although I don't think it's fully fair to comment until the game is over and every detail is known) was AWFUL. It was a classic case of what I've long referred to as 'Ace syndrome'. He got a cop role, claimed the moment he turned someone up as scum, and then got nightkilled. And, as the usual coda, then had the nerve to accuse any potential doctors in the town of incompetence.

[Pleatherface]

True, just pointing out that it's more a lack of common sense and individual thinking than anything else. Investigators aren't the problem, it's just that they provide an easy way out and discourage good honest players from making sensible moves without back up.

However, taking investigators away completely encourages people to follow based on reputation, and encourages newer players to take a back seat and make easy scapegoats based on the fact that they're new and not contributing, and sense there ARE no investigators, noone can really be faulted for taking a shot in the dark and lynching a valuable townie player on the mere assumption that they're scum, possibly leading to more townie deaths.

There's no single reason for the way things have been going lately, part of it is an over-reliance on investigators this is completely true and it would be idiotic to argue otherwise, but there is a reason that mafia games have somewhat evolved from their purest point. Some would say it's to make the game easier for morons which I supose in some cases is true, but it's also due to many games being lost for the town due to sheer lack of information and some pretty bad calls based on first instinct.

I welcome any and all to disagree and correct me here, infact I expect it.. But I personally believe what we need here on EWB is a Mafia equivilent to a spiritual revival if you will. We need to get back to the basics and everyone that plays needs to refamiliarize themselves with the rules, or in my case learn them for the first time.

Traditional Maf can accomplish most of that, but it wont be a problem solver for long, because if we're not relying on investigators we're relying on people that are perceived as much better players.

Gogo has been a sufferer of the first night kill for so long that there for awhile I think people were just doing it for tradition, but it started because people saw him as a threat, and I've read more than one mafia game where a lynch was began on him simply because he made it halfway through the game.

To sum it all up, we need to grow as players (and I'm talking about the lower rung here, the few people I can lump myself in with.) and stop depending on just one source for our decision making process. As far as I can tell the games here work as the vocal people even those without any sembelance of a defense are rarely if ever questioned before the game reaches the wire/big turning point, there are ofcourse exceptions to this but more often than not the quiet and infirmed players are killed off in some cases without provocation and a single tear isn't shed.

There's too much seperation between the classes of players, add in the overzealous investigators, the guys with solid information that decide not to come forward and risk dying (still have no fucking clue why Split Second with two scummies dead to rights sat on it, sure he dropped out but if he was sending in orders then real life can only account for so much.), and mix the plain retarded with the vets that push for lynches just to see the game continue with no care for how it ends (I'll maintain to my dying day that this is the only explaination for me handing Essa the win in WCW 2k.) and you end up with a mess there's no getting away from.

I don't know the solution, or I'd be typing a whole lot less, but I agree there is a definite problem here and I'm atleast 25% sure it's not completely my fault.

[Sousa]

TEOL, how does Traditional Mafia work beyond the fact that everyone gets a role that's just town or scum? There are no investigators in a game like that, right?

[TEOL]

TEOL, how does Traditional Mafia work beyond the fact that everyone gets a role that's just town or scum? There are no investigators in a game like that, right?

That's right.

And I agree with you, Pleather, that people shouldn't rely on perceived better players. I personally believe in approaching every game anew, because for all you know those 'better players' are scum anyway.

[Pesci]

I just read TradMaf 3 again and I really want another one. Hurry up, seriously

[TEOL]

Oh fine.

[thuganomic]

And don't worry, if people still want a well-calculated () clusterfuck, DC: Gotham will be up probably next week.