The Mafia Discussion Thread

[MalaCloudy Black]

This arguement is boring, it needs less you guys being a bore.

[Ruki]

He's pulling a Dragsy.

[C-MIL]

Take it to the hate thread.

[naiwf]

This arguement is boring, it needs less you guys being a bore.

The game that led to the argument is what's boring Cloudy. Get back in your corner

[MalaCloudy Black]

Ffffffffine.

[naiwf]

Ffffffffine.

({)

Norro's timing is spectacular. I love that guy.

[MalaCloudy Black]

(})

(N)

*BATISTA BOMB*

[C-MIL]

In honor of WWF '92, it should've been a superkick through plate glass...

[-A-]

I wasn't trying to look townie. I was trying to lay low. That works two ways. I shouldn't have had to roleclaim to defend myself because I wasn't being accused of anything, other than your cries of "not looking townie". I only fake-claimed to try and scare off a night kill once it became clear to me that the mafia pretty much had to kill one of us in order to frame the other. I was never at any point afraid of a lynch, no matter how much you thought you were leading the town. If I was, I wouldn't have lied, duh. "Lynch all liars." I was happy to make myself look suspect because it was the only way to protect myself from a night-kill given that the mafia wouldn't bother killing me if they thought they could swing a lynch on me. You misunderstood what I was trying to do and automatically assumed you knew better than I did. You didn't and apparently still don't.

You shouldn't set into motion a plan that requires other townies to know what you're doing. We don't know you're town and we don't know what your master plan is. If you want to lay low as a protector, you still have to avoid seeming like a lurker in-thread. Don't you think it's legitimate to pressure lurkers? Don't you think that when the majority of players have done something to prove themselves to be town - be it by roleclaiming or through leading lynches on scum - that we should be looking at the remainder? At no point did I believe I was leading the town, I vote for who I want to vote for. I believed you were playing scummily and I still do. Whether you were town or not is irrelevant, because a townie can play however they like, scummily or not. If you hate roleclaiming so much, then why was that your only defence? I wasn't the only person voting for you, this isn't exclusively my hang-up.

I do consider you a bastion of "poast moar" and when you ask people that don't have a valid defense because they have nothing valid to defend against, how do you expect them to respond? Especially when they feel that whatever response they muster won't shake you loose, which whether true or not was how I felt, how I was made to feel.

I wasn't asking you to defend yourself from an accusation. I was saying that you'd done nothing to help the town, so you were suspicious. You are 'defending' yourself from the accusation of doing nothing and deliberately being non-committal. That makes it harder to judge whether you're scum, therefore it is a scummy action.

Odd though that other people post nothing but a claim and then suddenly it's not so important that they continue to post. I mean... Essa, anyone? I digress.

Then you posted a claim and I started looking for other people. I was really hard to shake loose, wasn't I? I suspected you more than Essa because you claimed towards teh end, increasing your ability to fakeclaim more effectively. In addition to that, you claimed Bomb, which is always scummy. Turns out that you were lying, so that's hardly misplaced suspicion.

First off, way to not be condescending, champ. Second of all, there are no flawless games. That's part of the elusive concept of fun I tried telling you about before. You can enjoy set-ups for their strengths and their weaknesses. That's part of the the balance, the give and take. Maxx did nothing wrong, aside from overextend the number of roles and then fill the game with chatty, claim-happy players and the people that love them. That's balance, champ. Can't have one part without the other.

The game was flawed and I'm sure Maxx will acknowledge that. I think everything in the balance was perfect, I think the subject and the write-ups were good, but the critical flaw made the game less enjoyable than it could have been.

I'm just saying that claimfests, which more often than not are born out of "poast moar", have made it tougher for me personally to enjoy these games as of late. I don't think it should be up to a game runner to build in countermeasures to it when it stems from people putting something other than personal enjoyment ahead of it as they go about their play.

I don't see a link between posting more and claimfests. If you have to resort to roleclaiming to defend yourself, that's your own decision. If you're town, then you should be trying to help the town by looking for scum. That's your defence. Play the game, that's how we have fun. Not deliberately posting as little as possible so you have nothing to defend and silently using your abilities at night.

[Maxx]

No way in hell do I vote for a Ruki mafia, if he even gets into the poll

[oldskool]

(})

(N)

*BATISTA BOMB*

Mine's better.

[Matt]

No way in hell do I vote for a Ruki mafia, if he even gets into the poll

What... because he's fat?

[Ruki]

No way in hell do I vote for a Ruki mafia, if he even gets into the poll

This is the thanks I get for not telling everyone that the investigator died when you told me on MSN? :/

[C-MIL]

Just saying now that this'll be my last post on the matter. If anyone takes issue with anything said, we'll take it up where we won't bore Cloudy...

I wasn't trying to look townie. I was trying to lay low. That works two ways. I shouldn't have had to roleclaim to defend myself because I wasn't being accused of anything, other than your cries of "not looking townie". I only fake-claimed to try and scare off a night kill once it became clear to me that the mafia pretty much had to kill one of us in order to frame the other. I was never at any point afraid of a lynch, no matter how much you thought you were leading the town. If I was, I wouldn't have lied, duh. "Lynch all liars." I was happy to make myself look suspect because it was the only way to protect myself from a night-kill given that the mafia wouldn't bother killing me if they thought they could swing a lynch on me. You misunderstood what I was trying to do and automatically assumed you knew better than I did. You didn't and apparently still don't.

You shouldn't set into motion a plan that requires other townies to know what you're doing. We don't know you're town and we don't know what your master plan is. If you want to lay low as a protector, you still have to avoid seeming like a lurker in-thread. Don't you think it's legitimate to pressure lurkers? Don't you think that when the majority of players have done something to prove themselves to be town - be it by roleclaiming or through leading lynches on scum - that we should be looking at the remainder? At no point did I believe I was leading the town, I vote for who I want to vote for. I believed you were playing scummily and I still do. Whether you were town or not is irrelevant, because a townie can play however they like, scummily or not. If you hate roleclaiming so much, then why was that your only defence? I wasn't the only person voting for you, this isn't exclusively my hang-up.

It didn't require other townies to know. It required other townies to leave me alone, something all but one had no problem doing. Do I think it's legitimate to pressure lurkers? It can be, but usually it's not. Some of the times I've seen lynches on inactives bear fruit is when chronic lurkers end up being scum. Just luck. Still, the whole "prove themselves to be town" thing is just stupid to me. Anyone can toss out a claim, scum or not. If that's all it takes to get you to back off, then your suspicion wasn't valid in the first place.

And AGAIN, I didn't claim to defend myself. I FAKEclaimed to try to scare the mafia away from nightkilling me. As for the other people that voted for me, IIRC it was you, Pizzamonkey who was scumwagonning and D-Extreme who was... well, I still don't know what he was doing, but it was a hell of a lot more suspect than anything I was or wasn't doing. Of course, when I pointed that out to you, your response was "well, he claimed so grrr"... and you don't see how you created a "claim or be lynched" atmosphere? So yeah, I'd say it was pretty much exclusively your hang-up. Sorry if you disagree.

I do consider you a bastion of "poast moar" and when you ask people that don't have a valid defense because they have nothing valid to defend against, how do you expect them to respond? Especially when they feel that whatever response they muster won't shake you loose, which whether true or not was how I felt, how I was made to feel.

I wasn't asking you to defend yourself from an accusation. I was saying that you'd done nothing to help the town, so you were suspicious. You are 'defending' yourself from the accusation of doing nothing and deliberately being non-committal. That makes it harder to judge whether you're scum, therefore it is a scummy action.

You had no idea what I'd done, nor any idea what I was doing. What was I supposed to say? "No, see... I am helping the town. I'm teh doctur!" And AGAIN, I wasn't trying to shake suspicion because as soon as I "looked townie", I'd be on the mafia's hit list. As a power role, I was doing what I could to stay off of it so I could use my powers to deflect their kills off somebody else... like you. What you did in your pursuit of me was harmless if needlessly aggressive, but my point stands... sometimes it behooves the town to have townies lay low. Sometimes "post more" is bad. For everybody. Even you.

Odd though that other people post nothing but a claim and then suddenly it's not so important that they continue to post. I mean... Essa, anyone? I digress.

Then you posted a claim and I started looking for other people. I was really hard to shake loose, wasn't I? I suspected you more than Essa because you claimed towards teh end, increasing your ability to fakeclaim more effectively. In addition to that, you claimed Bomb, which is always scummy. Turns out that you were lying, so that's hardly misplaced suspicion.

Exactly. I posted a claim and the heat was off. Doesn't matter whether I was scum or not, just that I claimed. So it really wasn't really "post more", it was "claim"... which is, in my opinion, a stupid and selfish way to play the game, one I see more and more these days. I don't like it and I'm going to post more about it. As for the bomb thing, AGAIN "looking townie" was not my M.O. I was trying to keep off the scum radar. To do that, I had to put myself on the town radar. I didn't expect you or anyone else to understand that short of me explaining it to you. My problem was, and still is, the fact that you seem to think you know better than I do how I SHOULD have played it. What I did worked and, more importantly, was the way I wanted to do it. Nobody but you had any problem with with it and it was only because it stood in opposition of your "post more" agenda. Can you at least realize how ridiculous your "help the town" pleas while badgering me for a claim seem in retrospect?

First off, way to not be condescending, champ. Second of all, there are no flawless games. That's part of the elusive concept of fun I tried telling you about before. You can enjoy set-ups for their strengths and their weaknesses. That's part of the the balance, the give and take. Maxx did nothing wrong, aside from overextend the number of roles and then fill the game with chatty, claim-happy players and the people that love them. That's balance, champ. Can't have one part without the other.

The game was flawed and I'm sure Maxx will acknowledge that. I think everything in the balance was perfect, I think the subject and the write-ups were good, but the critical flaw made the game less enjoyable than it could have been.

Maxx should acknowledge it, but I hope he does so knowing that he only shares part of the blame for the flaw. The rest belongs to everyone that turned it into a claimfest. Whatever errors Maxx made can be chalked up to ignorance. The rest was just laziness or selfishness, neither of which are as easily forgiven.

I'm just saying that claimfests, which more often than not are born out of "poast moar", have made it tougher for me personally to enjoy these games as of late. I don't think it should be up to a game runner to build in countermeasures to it when it stems from people putting something other than personal enjoyment ahead of it as they go about their play.

I don't see a link between posting more and claimfests. If you have to resort to roleclaiming to defend yourself, that's your own decision. If you're town, then you should be trying to help the town by looking for scum. That's your defence. Play the game, that's how we have fun. Not deliberately posting as little as possible so you have nothing to defend and silently using your abilities at night.

It depends why people are posting more. If it's because they want to share their insight, then that's fine. If it's because they're being browbeaten into it by an overzealous player doing it because they think it's part of the rules, part and parcel to playing the game... then yeah, I can very easily see how people would find themselves scrambling for information to provide. You're given a role and nothing more and sometimes that's all you have. You can look for scum, but if you don't see it, you have nothing to add to the discussion. Except of course your role... which is really all it takes, as this game proved.

Last thing before I drop the matter... assuming everyone that plays will play and enjoy the game the same way is rather foolish. If there's anything at all you should take away from this, it's should be that your assumptions can be wrong. Because they can. Seriously.

[NobBe Nobbs]

Oh my sweet Lords of Kobol the game's spilled over into the discussion thread. You all know what this means.

CHIKARA Special: C-MIL

[naiwf]

I'm going to tangentially go off of C-MIL's previous point about the whole "post more" thing. I referenced it in Jam's game

Spoiler: Click here to view

It's Day 1 so there's really nothing to go on but minor slips and/or gut feelings. Burninator will still be here on Day 2 unless someone in control of a kill sees him as being a huge threat for some bizarre reason. The odds are that someone like me, Sousa or RW are going to end up dead once we get to the night phase so why slow the day to a crawl when it's not going to change anything in the long run? Quasi's not going to be any less suspicious in 6 hours and Burninator won't suddenly develop tact. If there was anything worthwhile to discuss I could see the point, but on Day 1 it just seems pointless to let one guy slow the game down to a standstill. If he's scum, he'll screw up again and get lynched on Day 2. Seems pretty simple to me.

The whole post is there, but basically we ground the game to a halt for about 16 hours, no one posted anything of substance and we still ended up lynching the same guy. I think when you're close to lynch or lose it's wise to take your sweet time doing everything, but given the basic premise that lurkers are gonna lurk, guys who never say anything are never gonna say anything, and people like me are going to be aggressive anyway, I just think that sometimes trying to get certain people to talk more often actually causes people to say less. Look at what just happened in Punch Out and how many people just fly onto wagons at the end "to get the day over with" or "for progress".

[Maxx]

I won't vote for Ruki cause he begged for votes last time he was in the poll and then condemned me for doing so.

Also, the fat thing.

[C-MIL]

Oh my sweet Lords of Kobol the game's spilled over into the discussion thread. You all know what this means.

CHIKARA Special: C-MIL

Spoiler: Click here to view

Kick to the head -> escape

AND ANOTHER THING I WANT ALL YOU PEOPLE TO KNOW IS...

[Mr Evil Guy]

this entire argument is tl;dr.

[-A-]

MEG: We only have one Discussion thread. I can't open up a new because that's not what we do.

You shouldn't set into motion a plan that requires other townies to know what you're doing. We don't know you're town and we don't know what your master plan is. If you want to lay low as a protector, you still have to avoid seeming like a lurker in-thread. Don't you think it's legitimate to pressure lurkers? Don't you think that when the majority of players have done something to prove themselves to be town - be it by roleclaiming or through leading lynches on scum - that we should be looking at the remainder? At no point did I believe I was leading the town, I vote for who I want to vote for. I believed you were playing scummily and I still do. Whether you were town or not is irrelevant, because a townie can play however they like, scummily or not. If you hate roleclaiming so much, then why was that your only defence? I wasn't the only person voting for you, this isn't exclusively my hang-up.

It didn't require other townies to know. It required other townies to leave me alone, something all but one had no problem doing. Do I think it's legitimate to pressure lurkers? It can be, but usually it's not. Some of the times I've seen lynches on inactives bear fruit is when chronic lurkers end up being scum. Just luck. Still, the whole "prove themselves to be town" thing is just stupid to me. Anyone can toss out a claim, scum or not. If that's all it takes to get you to back off, then your suspicion wasn't valid in the first place.

Pressuring does not equal lynching. I would never and have never lynched someone blind because that's pointless. Not even in Criminal Minds when you made one post in two weeks - damaging the game just as badly as roleclaimfests do in my opinion. The only way you can force lurkers to post is to vote for them. If you claim, you've given us information and you've committed yourself. That's why I back off - so I can look for other suspects. Then if you're still near the top of the suspects list I'll vote for you again. I don't see why you think the suspicion wasn't valid just because you claimed. It's simple enough - you did nothing, committed yourself to nothing and you could easily have been scum. When you claimed, it was less likely. Do you disagree?

And AGAIN, I didn't claim to defend myself. I FAKEclaimed to try to scare the mafia away from nightkilling me. As for the other people that voted for me, IIRC it was you, Pizzamonkey who was scumwagonning and D-Extreme who was... well, I still don't know what he was doing, but it was a hell of a lot more suspect than anything I was or wasn't doing. Of course, when I pointed that out to you, your response was "well, he claimed so grrr"... and you don't see how you created a "claim or be lynched" atmosphere? So yeah, I'd say it was pretty much exclusively your hang-up. Sorry if you disagree.

You didn't fakeclaim, you posted your role title as a defence. If you hate roleclaiming, then why did you do it? You are complicit in the mass roleclaim as much as anyone because that was the only method you had to defend yourself. Did we ever lynch anyone who hadn't claimed? Nope, only GoGo, the don, when he went AWOL and made it obvious. Did I ever demand that anyone claim? Nope. Read the thread. I would have been off your back if you'd just expressed an opinion on who we should be lynching, but you refused. You said 'D-Extreme' (a townie, as it turns out) and then said you weren't actually 'going after him.' A great help.

You had no idea what I'd done, nor any idea what I was doing. What was I supposed to say? "No, see... I am helping the town. I'm teh doctur!" And AGAIN, I wasn't trying to shake suspicion because as soon as I "looked townie", I'd be on the mafia's hit list. As a power role, I was doing what I could to stay off of it so I could use my powers to deflect their kills off somebody else... like you. What you did in your pursuit of me was harmless if needlessly aggressive, but my point stands... sometimes it behooves the town to have townies lay low. Sometimes "post more" is bad. For everybody. Even you.

So that was your plan to help the town? Stay quiet and use the ability given to you by the mod? How many people did you save from death over the course of the game and do you think you did better than could be expected for anyone who had that role? You say that posting more would have made you a mafia target, I say that accusing you made you a suspect and made the scum less likely to night-kill. What do you think? I don't see how you can possibly argue that roleclaiming harms the town after this game of all games. Pressuring you and forcing you to claim closed the noose around pizza and GoGo's head and won the game. Yes, that means roleclaiming has to be controlled. That's why - because it's too easy. You can't on one hand argue that claiming killed the game and on the other 'actually, sometimes it harms the town as well.' Of course it does. Do 100% effective plays exist anywhere? Nope.

Exactly. I posted a claim and the heat was off. Doesn't matter whether I was scum or not, just that I claimed. So it really wasn't really "post more", it was "claim"... which is, in my opinion, a stupid and selfish way to play the game, one I see more and more these days.

You chose to claim. You resorted to that and you contributed to the claimfest. If you'd bothered to try and find scum instead of posting nothing and sending in your ability every night that would have been better for the town. Did I ever roleclaim? Nope, not until the game was over.

What I did worked and, more importantly, was the way I wanted to do it.

This is what I most seriously disagree with. Do you seriously think your contribution to the town was so great? Or that I think you helped the town just because it was me you saved? I don't. You sent in your target every night and managed to save ... one person? Was it two? And you repeatedly protected pizzamonkey. Even picking at random, you'd probably get one target right. Using the role given to you by the mod doesn't prove anything and protecting one person successfully proves nothing. Your justification for picking me was that the mafia would obviously kill me to implicate you. Was that true or was it completely self-centred? I don't know. I guessed I'd be a target because I was unclaimed and because I was the most vocal townie around. I dunno. It's still one success in a game of 7 nights. Fantastic play.

My problem was, and still is, the fact that you seem to think you know better than I do how I SHOULD have played it. What I did worked and, more importantly, was the way I wanted to do it. Nobody but you had any problem with with it and it was only because it stood in opposition of your "post more" agenda. Can you at least realize how ridiculous your "help the town" pleas while badgering me for a claim seem in retrospect?

And the underlying tone of your posts hasn't been that I'm in the wrong for how I played? Come on, that's why we're disagreeing. You think I'm playing the wrong way and I think you're playing the wrong way. You feel much happier repeating over and over again that I was badgering you for a claim when I made it totally clear that you could do anything to make yourself seem townie - express any kind of opinion which you obstinately refused to do. Why? Would it have damaged the town for you to actually try and find scum?

Last thing before I drop the matter... assuming everyone that plays will play and enjoy the game the same way is rather foolish. If there's anything at all you should take away from this, it's should be that your assumptions can be wrong. Because they can. Seriously.

I'm clearly not assuming that everyone plays the same way, just as you aren't. We play however we want and I know that. You can play however you want and if I think you're scummy then I vote for you. If other people think they're scummy then they vote for you. I've already mentioned that I think you habitually play in a scummy manner even when town, you totally refuse to do anything to help the town except send in your night action and lurk as much as humanly possible. You think that I should simply accept that you play differently and I don't think that's a requirement of mafia.