The Mafia Discussion Thread

[Matt]

Maxx's game is almost done, that means that there'll be a poll shortly... People should convince me who to vote for, Mushrrom Kingdom, WWF 1992 or Dynamite

[-A-]

In what way was that a claimfest? Besides which, I think the fact that you had a mafia investigator contributed to your knowledge. How did knowing who everyone was actually help you?

It's really simple, if you are town then you have to prove it. If the only way you can do it is by claiming then you're in a bad position and you're not helping the town. We all know exactly why the town lost the game - because the townies made absolutely no effort to do anything. TRW, Essa, nabeel, FD - they all survived to endgame by doing absolutely nothing. D-Extreme made stupid mistake after stupid mistake and didn't help at all. Ace made some baffling decisions and we marginally lost at the end. That's how that game was lost.

EDIT: And muting me for two days in a row because I was out for your head because you refused to claim contributed.

Edited April 14, 2009 by -A-

[-A-]

Maxx's game is almost done, that means that there'll be a poll shortly... People should convince me who to vote for, Mushrrom Kingdom, WWF 1992 or Dynamite

Candor Falls!

[Ruki]

Maxx's game is almost done, that means that there'll be a poll shortly... People should convince me who to vote for, Mushrrom Kingdom, WWF 1992 or Dynamite

Mushroom Kingdom!

Why? Because my games don't drag usually. I like things to go nice and quickly. Also, it'll be like MARIO Mafia, with about 99% less Mario.

[Matt]

Well since I doesn't want me to vote his game, that's probably me not voting for it

Mushroom or WWF 92... Decisions decisions.

[Pizza]

In what way was that a claimfest?

I was out for your head because you refused to claim

You came up with a list of people who hadn't claimed or been cleared by one of the two investigators, and asked everyone on that list to claim their ability, and everyone did except for me. And muting you had approximately 0% to do with it, Ross was getting lynched the first day I muted you with or without your input, and the game was over the second time. The only reason I silenced you was because I had the option and you were the only person worth silencing at that point based on what we wanted to accomplish that day. I didn't even think it was going to work because I was roleblocked trying to silence you much earlier in the game, and gave up on the ability until we used it to keep oldskool alive an extra day.

To elaborate, specifically Rosses claim gave us a direct path to victory. We decided how every lynch was going to go from 15 players left once we saw everyones claim, and who was believable and who we could lead the town against, and everything went exactly to plan, including Ross the bomb taking a townie with him.

Edited April 14, 2009 by pizzamonkey

[-A-]

How did the roleclaiming help you win? Balanced against the fact that it implicated you when otherwise we might not have suspected you? And again - did claiming result in you winning the game or did the ambivalence of the majority of the town? Would we have lynched TRW, taking out 2 townies and another via nightkill, if he'd helped the town at any point? When you look at the total story of that game and think of the number on reason you won, do you think - roleclaiming? Or inactive, uninterested town?

EDIT: And you muting me won you the game. You claimed to be a protector and then didn't die. It was a lie, case closed. If I'd been able to argue that point I think you would have been lynched.

Edited April 14, 2009 by -A-

[oldskool]

No new poll until MTPO picks up

Seriously, wtf.

[Ruki]

Well since I doesn't want me to vote his game, that's probably me not voting for it

Mushroom or WWF 92... Decisions decisions.

Also, RW just recently ran a game

[MalaCloudy Black]

Vote Watchmen in '09.

[-A-]

To elaborate, specifically Rosses claim gave us a direct path to victory. We decided how every lynch was going to go from 15 players left once we saw everyones claim, and who was believable and who we could lead the town against, and everything went exactly to plan, including Ross the bomb taking a townie with him.

Ross, who had already been outed by an investigator and claimed to let the town know he was a bomb? That constitutes a claimfest?

[naiwf]

No new poll until MTPO picks up

Seriously, wtf.

It is a proven fact that when I die, games die with me

[Pizza]

You pressuring oldskool to claim led to Split coming out earlier than he should have. Manipulating WOC's ability led to me getting townie cred despite not claiming. Rosses bomb claim gave us a road map to victory that we followed completely. (He was lynched because oldskool cleared him, not because of his inactive play) Knowing that there wasn't a doctor gave me a short term fallback if the lynch ever did go against me. Knowing you were bulletproof led to us not wasting a kill against you. Knowing Zan could survive three kill attempts let us know the 2nd nightkill against him would go through.

EDIT: THE GAME WAS OVER. Rabid added an extra day he shouldn't have. I could have said the day after my claim that "Hey I'm scum" and it would not have mattered because we couldn't lose due to numbers. I could have silenced WOC, who was the only townie I was getting to vote for me at that stage and let you say 'No way Pizza is the doctor' and we still would have won because the town did not have the numbers to lynch me. Silencing you accomplished exactly the same thing that silencing any other townie would have.

Edited April 14, 2009 by pizzamonkey

[StevenRichardsRules]

WATCHMEN!!!

[-A-]

I didn't pressure him to claim! I voted for him and advocated his lynch because I thought he was scum AND HE WAS. He roleclaimed to defend himself!

[C-MIL]

I don't feel that way at all, nor have I ever said as much. I only asked you not to vote for me in that game because you were doing it for a very stupid and, in my opinion, biased reason. Even after I started posting and became active, even more so than you were, you still admitted to advocating a lynch on me... even while trying to defend your play style in the post-game when somebody dared to balk on their obligation to respect it.

I said many times that you could do many things to make yourself seem townie, I never drew a roleclaim out of you. You lurked, did nothing in-thread and then when you had no other defence, you roleclaimed to defend yourself. Did I even resort to roleclaiming to cover up my play? Nope. Was I advocating a lynch on you because you hadn't posted? No. I said that I had a long list of people I believed to be town and you were on it. You did nothing to prove yourself to be town, so I voted for you.

I wasn't trying to look townie. I was trying to lay low. That works two ways. I shouldn't have had to roleclaim to defend myself because I wasn't being accused of anything, other than your cries of "not looking townie". I only fake-claimed to try and scare off a night kill once it became clear to me that the mafia pretty much had to kill one of us in order to frame the other. I was never at any point afraid of a lynch, no matter how much you thought you were leading the town. If I was, I wouldn't have lied, duh. "Lynch all liars." I was happy to make myself look suspect because it was the only way to protect myself from a night-kill given that the mafia wouldn't bother killing me if they thought they could swing a lynch on me. You misunderstood what I was trying to do and automatically assumed you knew better than I did. You didn't and apparently still don't.

I have no problem with that, although I disagree, particularly with the last seven words. Nevertheless, continue on. Just accept that Cartoon wasn't your, nor the people who subscribe to your mafia theories', finest hour by any means. That expressive style of play soured the game by exploiting a weak spot in the game design which, and this is just my opinion, should not be what games played here are about. There are more important things to consider.

Yes, like fun.

So since when have I become the bastion of themed games and roleclaiming?

Never said you were. However, I do consider you a bastion of "poast moar" and when you ask people that don't have a valid defense because they have nothing valid to defend against, how do you expect them to respond? Especially when they feel that whatever response they muster won't shake you loose, which whether true or not was how I felt, how I was made to feel. That's where the claiming stemmed from, people with nothing to say being put in a position where they feel forced to say something. So they claim. Because they need to post more.

Odd though that other people post nothing but a claim and then suddenly it's not so important that they continue to post. I mean... Essa, anyone? I digress.

I didn't do anything amazing in that game and I didn't set a foot wrong, it was a neutral performance and I won because the game was broken. Since when did I exploit the game at all? Did I demand roleclaims from anyone? No. How on earth am I supposed to know that the mod's made a flawed game? I know nothing about this cartoon, am I supposed to know that the scum are up against it? I didn't exploit anything, the game was flawed.

I'm not saying you did anything, much less intentionally. However, you were ONE OF THE PEOPLE applying that pressure that caused the dam to leak. You're taking this discussion far too personally. However, you also seem to be the only person arguing it from your side.

That's the simple conclusion from this - don't make flawed games.

First off, way to not be condescending, champ. Second of all, there are no flawless games. That's part of the elusive concept of fun I tried telling you about before. You can enjoy set-ups for their strengths and their weaknesses. That's part of the the balance, the give and take. Maxx did nothing wrong, aside from overextend the number of roles and then fill the game with chatty, claim-happy players and the people that love them. That's balance, champ. Can't have one part without the other.

That's a lesson we've all learnt already. This isn't evidence that roleclaiming is mafia's satan. You don't look at Scrubs Mafia and conclude that all themed games are impossible. The conclusion is simple - roleclaiming can be a game-killer, so use one or more of the many, many ways of controlling it. With that done, it can make madia games even better than basic TradMaf games.

This, in isolation, isn't evidence. However, the current trend dictates the way things are going... and this is the way it's going. Before you reply with a defense, I'm not blaming it on YOU. I'm just saying that claimfests, which more often than not are born out of "poast moar", have made it tougher for me personally to enjoy these games as of late. I don't think it should be up to a game runner to build in countermeasures to it when it stems from people putting something other than personal enjoyment ahead of it as they go about their play. Winning's great... but what do you win? Hell, what did we win?

If role-claiming's not the game killer, something else will be... and as long as the prevailing sentiment is "let's win" over "let's have fun", there will be ways for people to find those flaws and exploits to the overall detriment of the forum. Thus, my proposed solution... focus on the fun rather than figuring out what's wrong with the game or its players. I realize everyone's going to play differently, but long story short... there are more important things than "looking townie". Or should be, anyway.

How would we have solved the problem of roleclaiming if we hadn't talked about it.

I'll tell you when somebody solves it.

[StevenRichardsRules]

WATCHMEN!!!

[StevenRichardsRules]

WATCHMEN!!!

[naiwf]

I think SRR wants to be excluded from that Watchmen game. He's only trying to appear like he wants in.

[C-MIL]

Besides, WWF '92 will win the poll. Watchmen's not retro enough...