The Mafia Discussion Thread

[C-MIL]

So I'm learning.

[-A-]

Seriously C-MIL, where has this imagined bias come from? You accused me of it repeatedly in Cartoon and I repeatedly asked - when have I ever gone after you when you haven't been scum? I voted for you in Criminal Minds and in Gotham and you were scum in both. Have I ever even remotely gone after you apart from that? You seem to feel like I have some obligation to respect your god-given right to lurk. I can vote for whoever I want and you can play however you want, what's the problem? I enjoy playing mafia like this, I don't like playing a game of 20 people saying nothing and bandwagoning and using night abilities. I like talking about games and I think talking about it makes games get better as well.

Edited April 14, 2009 by -A-

[naiwf]

C-MIL gets where I'm coming from. If I was town, I would have been able to tell everyone who was scum by Day 3 and not because of how they played or because of investigations but simply because someone thought it was good to get everyone in the game to claim from a limited pool of players. What you're not understanding -A- is that I was WILLING to get myself lynched if it meant someone would have to take the bullet by coming out and catching me in a lie. I do stuff like that regularly because a scum with no ability (vanilla if you weeeeeel) is worth losing for a guy who can ID the rest of his buddies. If I get lynched because Ace catches me, that's fine because Ace dies that night. No one else has to stick their neck out and your info source is cut off before it gets anywhere.

I don't mind losing to superior players if they happen to catch a slip up or analyze my play and conclude that I'm scum. I do mind losing because I wasn't given one of the 20 confirmed roles in the game and am thereby SOL. I don't know if you're a baseball fan but if I decided to run a Mets Opening Day 2009 Mafia with 12 players and you're not Santana, Reyes, Murphy, Wright, Delgado, Church, Schneider, Castillo or Beltran and almost every townie decides that they don't even have to play the game to prove their alignment they just need to claim one of those 9 names you'll get what playing this game was like. I knew who everyone was when about 8 or 9 people were dead. That's not fun.

[thuganomic]

Hmm. naiwf has a good point.

*claims Mets Opening Day 2009 Mafia.

Although I'm sure Essa will turn one of his many failed Mets diaries into one.

[Matt]

Wow, newbie scum... You went for the most suspicious player outside of IJS who so far got everything wrong. You're damn lucky I was cop else that would've been a horrible play.

[HailtotheYo]

either of you care to PM me who I am ?

wait, by 8/9 dead ? plus your mafia guys ... so you knew who everyone was after half of the players were accounted for ?

Edited April 14, 2009 by HailtotheKing

[naiwf]

Has anyone done a baseball themed game yet? If not, I'm going to call dibs on MLB Mafia: The Dead Ball Era. I'll decide if it's small or medium after The Boondocks.

[Pizza]

You're Daffy Duck.

[-A-]

C-MIL gets where I'm coming from. If I was town, I would have been able to tell everyone who was scum by Day 3 and not because of how they played or because of investigations but simply because someone thought it was good to get everyone in the game to claim from a limited pool of players. What you're not understanding -A- is that I was WILLING to get myself lynched if it meant someone would have to take the bullet by coming out and catching me in a lie. I do stuff like that regularly because a scum with no ability (vanilla if you weeeeeel) is worth losing for a guy who can ID the rest of his buddies. If I get lynched because Ace catches me, that's fine because Ace dies that night. No one else has to stick their neck out and your info source is cut off before it gets anywhere.

Where have I contradicted that anywhere, seriously? I categorically believe you when you say that, but I don't see how it's relevant to what we've been talking about. Does being willing to sacrifice yourself for the team have anything to do with balancing or roleclaiming in general? Is it indicative of good scum play? I dunno, because you didn't make the decision to take one for the team. Ace tested your statement, should have found out it was a lie and that's it.

I don't mind losing to superior players if they happen to catch a slip up or analyze my play and conclude that I'm scum. I do mind losing because I wasn't given one of the 20 confirmed roles in the game and am thereby SOL. I don't know if you're a baseball fan but if I decided to run a Mets Opening Day 2009 Mafia with 12 players and you're not Santana, Reyes, Murphy, Wright, Delgado, Church, Schneider, Castillo or Beltran and almost every townie decides that they don't even have to play the game to prove their alignment they just need to claim one of those 9 names you'll get what playing this game was like. I knew who everyone was when about 8 or 9 people were dead. That's not fun.

Again, have I claimed anywhere that this game wasn't totally flawed? No, I haven't. Roleclaiming dominated this game. What I'm arguing with is the idea that the scum played well or that the town did absolutely nothing. You've completely ignored the fact that no-one on your team looked townie at any point. You've completely ignored the fact that we as a town group managed to use logic above and beyond the mass roleclaim by picking TRW over pizza, by lynching you despite the fact you had a safeclaim and by suspecting pizza in the first place.

[Matt]

either of you care to PM me who I am ?

You're HTTK

[C-MIL]

You accused me of it repeatedly in Cartoon and I repeatedly asked - when have I ever gone after you when you haven't been scum?

You seem to feel like I have some obligation to respect your god-given right to lurk. I can vote for whoever I want and you can play however you want, what's the problem?

I don't feel that way at all, nor have I ever said as much. I only asked you not to vote for me in that game because you were doing it for a very stupid and, in my opinion, biased reason. Even after I started posting and became active, even more so than you were, you still admitted to advocating a lynch on me... even while trying to defend your play style in the post-game when somebody dared to balk on their obligation to respect it.

I enjoy playing mafia like this, I don't like playing a game of 20 people saying nothing and bandwagoning and using night abilities. I like talking about games and I think talking about it makes games get better as well.

I have no problem with that, although I disagree, particularly with the last seven words. Nevertheless, continue on. Just accept that Cartoon wasn't your, nor the people who subscribe to your mafia theories', finest hour by any means. That expressive style of play soured the game by exploiting a weak spot in the game design which, and this is just my opinion, should not be what games played here are about. There are more important things to consider.

Yes, like fun.

[Matt]

Vanillas are the last people who should lay low. Go out on a limb and try to figure out some scum so they have to kill you instead of the power roles.

Pizzamonkey you couldn't be any more wrong. If they came out, spoke and tried to find scum, they'd get nightkilled and therefore wouldn't live until endgame.

Edited April 14, 2009 by Footjob Fever

[Pizza]

I take surviving until endgame as town as an insult unless somebodies protecting me.

[naiwf]

C-MIL gets where I'm coming from. If I was town, I would have been able to tell everyone who was scum by Day 3 and not because of how they played or because of investigations but simply because someone thought it was good to get everyone in the game to claim from a limited pool of players. What you're not understanding -A- is that I was WILLING to get myself lynched if it meant someone would have to take the bullet by coming out and catching me in a lie. I do stuff like that regularly because a scum with no ability (vanilla if you weeeeeel) is worth losing for a guy who can ID the rest of his buddies. If I get lynched because Ace catches me, that's fine because Ace dies that night. No one else has to stick their neck out and your info source is cut off before it gets anywhere.

Where have I contradicted that anywhere, seriously? I categorically believe you when you say that, but I don't see how it's relevant to what we've been talking about. Does being willing to sacrifice yourself for the team have anything to do with balancing or roleclaiming in general? Is it indicative of good scum play? I dunno, because you didn't make the decision to take one for the team. Ace tested your statement, should have found out it was a lie and that's it.

I don't mind losing to superior players if they happen to catch a slip up or analyze my play and conclude that I'm scum. I do mind losing because I wasn't given one of the 20 confirmed roles in the game and am thereby SOL. I don't know if you're a baseball fan but if I decided to run a Mets Opening Day 2009 Mafia with 12 players and you're not Santana, Reyes, Murphy, Wright, Delgado, Church, Schneider, Castillo or Beltran and almost every townie decides that they don't even have to play the game to prove their alignment they just need to claim one of those 9 names you'll get what playing this game was like. I knew who everyone was when about 8 or 9 people were dead. That's not fun.

Again, have I claimed anywhere that this game wasn't totally flawed? No, I haven't. Roleclaiming dominated this game. What I'm arguing with is the idea that the scum played well or that the town did absolutely nothing. You've completely ignored the fact that no-one on your team looked townie at any point. You've completely ignored the fact that we as a town group managed to use logic above and beyond the mass roleclaim by picking TRW over pizza, by lynching you despite the fact you had a safeclaim and by suspecting pizza in the first place.

OMG. Dude, we stopped caring when it became apparent there was no wiggle room. If you really think Pizza, GoGo and I brought our "A" game to Cartoon All-Stars you're just being mean

When you are boxed into a corner with nowhere to go it's worthless to play hard. The fact that we ran off 8 townies out of 9 at one point is all you need to know about what was going on in the game before the claims took place. If I wanted to play hard I would have lynched GoGo, kept silent, killed C-MIL in the night and framed you for it. I had a claim, you were being shady. I think I would have won that especially since Ruki believed me. I didn't feel like playing anymore and played so shitacularly (is that a word?) that anyone with a pulse should have realized I was scum. Stop taking credit for great reads except for the pizza one. Everything else was written in stone from the moment we couldn't lynch ANYONE because all they did was claim a face in the boxart.

I'm on the ball in Newbie Mafia. I had you as town Matt, though I said some rather not nice things about you being set up.

[Matt]

I was being sarcastic, I hope you realise.

Edit: And naiwf, I didn't quite understand but I get the impression you thought I played badly (which I did, horrible in fact) but to be honest, the only thing I'd have done differently in retrospect is lynch Quasi day one and realise that Toffee was just dumb.

Edited April 14, 2009 by Footjob Fever

[thuganomic]

Vanillas are the last people who should lay low. Go out on a limb and try to figure out some scum so they have to kill you instead of the power roles.

Pizzamonkey you couldn't be any more wrong. If they came out, spoke and tried to find scum, they'd get nightkilled and therefore wouldn't live until endgame.

Self-interest FTW!

[-A-]

I don't feel that way at all, nor have I ever said as much. I only asked you not to vote for me in that game because you were doing it for a very stupid and, in my opinion, biased reason. Even after I started posting and became active, even more so than you were, you still admitted to advocating a lynch on me... even while trying to defend your play style in the post-game when somebody dared to balk on their obligation to respect it.

I said many times that you could do many things to make yourself seem townie, I never drew a roleclaim out of you. You lurked, did nothing in-thread and then when you had no other defence, you roleclaimed to defend yourself. Did I even resort to roleclaiming to cover up my play? Nope. Was I advocating a lynch on you because you hadn't posted? No. I said that I had a long list of people I believed to be town and you weren't on it. You did nothing to prove yourself to be town, so I voted for you.

I have no problem with that, although I disagree, particularly with the last seven words. Nevertheless, continue on. Just accept that Cartoon wasn't your, nor the people who subscribe to your mafia theories', finest hour by any means. That expressive style of play soured the game by exploiting a weak spot in the game design which, and this is just my opinion, should not be what games played here are about. There are more important things to consider.

Yes, like fun.

So since when have I become the bastion of themed games and roleclaiming? I didn't do anything amazing in that game and I didn't set a foot wrong, it was a neutral performance and I won because the game was broken. Since when did I exploit the game at all? Did I demand roleclaims from anyone? No. How on earth am I supposed to know that the mod's made a flawed game? I know nothing about this cartoon, am I supposed to know that the scum are up against it? I didn't exploit anything, the game was flawed. That's the simple conclusion from this - don't make flawed games. That's a lesson we've all learnt already. This isn't evidence that roleclaiming is mafia's satan. You don't look at Scrubs Mafia and conclude that all themed games are impossible. The conclusion is simple - roleclaiming can be a game-killer, so use one or more of the many, many ways of controlling it. With that done, it can make madia games even better than basic TradMaf games.

How would we have solved the problem of roleclaiming if we hadn't talked about it?

Edited April 14, 2009 by -A-

[naiwf]

I was being sarcastic, I hope you realise.

Edit: And naiwf, I didn't quite understand but I get the impression you thought I played badly (which I did, horrible in fact) but to be honest, the only thing I'd have done differently in retrospect is lynch Quasi day one and realise that Toffee was just dumb.

No, I don't think you played badly. I think the mafia used you because you were obviously town. I didn't think you were the Investigator though. If -A- doesn't post it afterwards I have my "review" saved and you can see what I said. That town is D-U-N-N.

[Your Mom]

I think it's just frustrating that people can't enjoy it how they want to without being put down

[Pizza]

-A- led a claimfest in Criminal Minds, and it helped us (the mafia) win the game. So they're not really that bad. As long as it's possible for the mafia to safeclaim. They don't even need fakeclaims, they just need to have some possibility of breaking the claimfest.