The Mafia Discussion Thread

[naiwf]

Weren't you heavily under suspicion and saved purely by your fakeclaim?

I was put under suspicion because Maxx gave Ace a three part answer to "is naiwf vanilla?" He gave me the safeclaim because he gave Ace too much info. Just admit that the town had a 99.9999% chance of winning the game and we can all move onto something else. You could put all of the best scum players into that game and they'd still get curbstomped as soon as all of the roles were revealed. I would have LOVED to be a townie in that game, that tells you something was wrong

[naiwf]

That's ugh... that's what I was saying. Not having any fakeclaims was the only reason you lost, no amount of power roles would've helped you, they'd have just made it so there was 7 winners rather than 9 or whatever it was.

If GoGo had been unlynchable, we would have lynched him instead of Pizza at that point in the game. That kills at least one extra townie. Pizza dies a day later. My claim would have carried me until deep into the endgame situation and knowing that I would NEVER have tried to kill Michael since we could effectively have had 3-4 bodies working against the town. It's a completely different game if we can offer GoGo up for a lynch that wouldn't take. That one minor difference might have been enough for us to win.

[-A-]

Weren't you heavily under suspicion and saved purely by your fakeclaim?

I was put under suspicion because Maxx gave Ace a three part answer to "is naiwf vanilla?" He gave me the safeclaim because he gave Ace too much info. Just admit that the town had a 99.9999% chance of winning the game and we can all move onto something else. You could put all of the best scum players into that game and they'd still get curbstomped as soon as all of the roles were revealed. I would have LOVED to be a townie in that game, that tells you something was wrong

Yeah, but you keep saying you would have destroyed the town if it weren't for the fact that you were screwed by roleclaiming, you were screwed by the balancing and the pure luck the SK died on night 1. Actually, your entire team quickly stopped trying at all and that's the reason the game ended so quickly. You and GoGo made absolutely no attempt to clear yourself through play and that's why you were suspects in the first place. Why didn't I supsect Bigal even though he hadn't claimed? He did something pro-town. Your entire group shut down. Yes, the game was unbalanced, but that doesn't mean your group is automatically awesome because there was no evidence of that. You didn't come across as townie in-thread and your plan at the end was totally flawed. What scummy plays did you make that were so great?

C-MIL - what, are we supposed to stick our heads in the sand and pretend we're playing a different game? He was suspected through play, the suspicion flagged when he provided a fakeclaim and then we lynched him because of ... his play. What's the problem here? Again, if you take roles completely out of the equation then naiwf would have been under suspicion from that moment. 'Your suspicion mustn't have been strong enough' is absolutely nothing to do with the argument about the balancing of the game, it's just an attempt to bring something negative into it to try and balance the situation (even though it proves nothing.)

[Maxx]

Essa asked to be replaced, and I remember planning on doing it, but then forgetting and then like 2 game periods later, we were pretty much done. But I wasn't going to let him win, as he asked to be removed.

[naiwf]

Yeah, but you keep saying you would have destroyed the town if it weren't for the fact that you were screwed by roleclaiming, you were screwed by the balancing and the pure luck the SK died on night 1. Actually, your entire team quickly stopped trying at all and that's the reason the game ended so quickly. You and GoGo made absolutely no attempt to clear yourself through play and that's why you were suspects in the first place. Why didn't I supsect Bigal even though he hadn't claimed? He did something pro-town. Your entire group shut down. Yes, the game was unbalanced, but that doesn't mean your group is automatically awesome because there was no evidence of that. You didn't come across as townie in-thread and your plan at the end was totally flawed. What scummy plays did you make that were so great?

C-MIL - what, are we supposed to stick our heads in the sand and pretend we're playing a different game? He was suspected through play, the suspicion flagged when he provided a fakeclaim and then we lynched him because of ... his play. What's the problem here? Again, if you take roles completely out of the equation then naiwf would have been under suspicion from that moment. 'Your suspicion mustn't have been strong enough' is absolutely nothing to do with the argument about the balancing of the game, it's just an attempt to bring something negative into it to try and balance the situation (even though it proves nothing.)

I was suspected mainly because Ace got inconclusive evidence about the response to my comment about being vanilla. If he simply answers yes or no, I either skate to the end or get lynched. It was a calculated risk because people are gonna suspect me in every game. If I can get an investigator or lie detector to reveal themselves just to take me out, that helps my team. Ace doing what he did killed off all of the town's info. If it wasn't just about claiming, you would never have picked off all of our members when there were about 15 people in the game. If you can't admit that, then I guess you're all just better players than I am. We didn't do anything overtly scummy or townie. We just let people get themselves lynched, killed confirmed townies and at some point everyone in the game claimed and we stopped caring because there was nothing we could do and that was that.

The town won because of claiming. That's not how a game of mafia is supposed to be won. It's essentially what WOC was trying to do in Newbie 2 before you modkilled him.

[-A-]

I was suspected mainly because Ace got inconclusive evidence about the response to my comment about being vanilla. If he simply answers yes or no, I either skate to the end or get lynched. It was a calculated risk because people are gonna suspect me in every game. If I can get an investigator or lie detector to reveal themselves just to take me out, that helps my team. Ace doing what he did killed off all of the town's info. If it wasn't just about claiming, you would never have picked off all of our members when there were about 15 people in the game. If you can't admit that, then I guess you're all just better players than I am. We didn't do anything overtly scummy or townie. We just let people get themselves lynched, killed confirmed townies and at some point everyone in the game claimed and we stopped caring because there was nothing we could do and that was that.

The town won because of claiming. That's not how a game of mafia is supposed to be won. It's essentially what WOC was trying to do in Newbie 2 before you modkilled him.

So now using abilities like lie detectors isn't legitimate either? We're only allowed to play Traditional games? What about cops, are they legitimate? They are part of the game of mafia. You claimed to be vanilla, you were not vanilla, that should have been the end of it. In fact, Ace got an inconclusive result AND you got a fakeclaim out of it.

Yes, you did sit back and let townies have their fun, but you made no attempt to make yourselves look townie and that's part of the reason you were suspected. Again, take away the roles. Did any of you do anything to clear yourselves?

I'm not saying anything about 'picking off all your members.' I'm saying two things and neither of them is 'we didn't win because of claiming.'

1) The only imbalance in the games was the lack of an ability to fakeclaim

2) You as a group did not play well even accepting point 1.

I have absolutely no problem with claiming and I think it's one of the most important parts of the game of mafia. Do you seriously think roleclaiming is on a par with quoting your role PM? There is no strategy to the latter, it basically gives the town one confirmed townie whenever they choose to use it. Roleclaiming is a more complicated issue which can be controlled in many ways. Quoting the role PM is meta-gaming.

Edited April 14, 2009 by -A-

[naiwf]

If Maxx says "no", I get lynched and Ace dies. Townies lose access to info and that's a trade scum should be willing to make.

For comparison's ske look at the endgame of CHIKARA vs Cartoon All Stars.

We knew that 5 out of 7 potential people were scum in CHIKARA based on investigations and play. We still almost lost because the scum were able to BS about Essa being a protector and MEG almost managed to win it at the end because we had to go based on play and some townies were playing a really odd game. In All-Stars people didn't have to do anything but claim because as long as their person was in the cartoon they were safe. When Pizza claimed Michael, TRW spoke up and Pizza got lynched. When we had about 15 people in the game the only 5 people who hadn't claimed were you, Ruki, TRW, Pizza and GoGo. You were setting a trap, TRW could win either way, Ruki was doing something () and the other 2 were scum.

They didn't try to bluff because we didn't have any material to bluff with. If we DID, we would have played differently. We're not terrible players, but when you're up against it from the onset and one of your guys dies on the first night it's pretty much downhill from there when everyone claims out of 20 possible roles for being in the game. Pizza and I were able to win Lemmings in a similar set up and neither one of us really drew any attention to ourselves because we didn't have to worry about claiming. We just played like townies, divided and conquered and won at the end.

I honestly think roleclaiming is bush league when it can 100% clear you as a townie or 100% guarantee that you're scum. Why do you think so many players fall back on it as a crutch? In all honestly do you think that the majority of the town played well? or did they simply have the ability to never get lynched because you knew there were only 20 characters in the source material and their best play was saying which one they were?

[thuganomic]

All town games won by roleclaiming should be asterisked. It's lazy, cheap, and terrible. In a game like Cartoon All-stars, where there are only so many roles, safeclaims are a necessity. Either that, or make the game smaller.

On the other hand, if you come up with an effective roleclaim yourself as mafia, you should get a pat on the back.

But I think setting up a good dynamic to prevent roleclaiming from ruining games should be the responsibility of the game runner. I think Jam does a good job when he runs his WWE games. He leaves out some big roles on purpose and left it up to the mafia to discover who they could effectively claim. Now, Sousa went one step further and gave everybody safeclaims. That might have given scum an edge IMO.

[C-MIL]

C-MIL - what, are we supposed to stick our heads in the sand and pretend we're playing a different game? He was suspected through play, the suspicion flagged when he provided a fakeclaim and then we lynched him because of ... his play. What's the problem here?

Everyone's suspicious. That's the whole point. Scum don't have to screw up when people are passing out claims and then turning their guns on those that haven't. He was suspected through play, asked for a claim, provided one and then wasn't lynched. What changed? Just the claim which is all that was needed to win. It shouldn't be that simple and runners shouldn't have to provide fake-claims to see to it that it isn't.

[-A-]

If Maxx says "no", I get lynched and Ace dies. Townies lose access to info and that's a trade scum should be willing to make.

Of course, that's perfectly legitimate. I said that you were suspected and saved by your fakeclaim and you responded by saying you were only suspected because of a lie detector. That's how the game works. Roleclaiming led to most of your mafia being implicated but it also saved you from being lynched as you would have been in a non-themed game. It works both ways. Take away everyone's roles and leave them with just abilities and you would have been lynched.

When Pizza claimed Michael, TRW spoke up and Pizza got lynched. When we had about 15 people in the game the only 5 people who hadn't claimed were you, Ruki, TRW, Pizza and GoGo. You were setting a trap, TRW could win either way, Ruki was doing something () and the other 2 were scum.

Why does it matter whether I was laying a trap or Ruki was doing something? Ask why did we believe TRW over pizza and why I believed Bigal over any of you. Why did no-one suspect me despite not claiming? Because of the normal passage we made our decisions. TRW's defence was better than pizzamonkey's, so we lynched pizza. Bigal helped push along a scum lynch when there was an easy avenue to lynch a townie. I pushed lynches on scum and I was saved from a night-kill. None of you were lynched simply because of roles. Your morale was down because of the roleclaiming and because you lost a guy on Night One and you didn't make any effort to clear yourself through normal play.

I honestly think roleclaiming is bush league when it can 100% clear you as a townie or 100% guarantee that you're scum. Why do you think so many players fall back on it as a crutch? In all honestly do you think that the majority of the town played well? or did they simply have the ability to never get lynched because you knew there were only 20 characters in the source material and their best play was saying which one they were?

What, you mean like it cleared you 100%? Didn't we manage to see through the fakeclaim provided to you and lynch you? Believable claims are believed, unbelievable ones aren't.

This is my assessment of the game: the town were put in a definitely preferable position because of the narrow scope of roles. Taking away the roles, things were very even. The fact that you could mute and vote-control three people in one day would be considered game breaking in any other game or any other circumstances. The rest of the town played neutrally and so did the entirety of the mafia. For every time you say 'townies only saved themselves by roleclaiming' I say 'the scum thought they could sit back, do nothing and not be suspected.' That's not mafia either - sitting in the background and vaguely defending yourself when accused.

Edited April 14, 2009 by -A-

[C-MIL]

How can you say "taking away the roles" when pretty much the entire game was either people claiming, people being asked to claim or people refusing to claim? If you're arguing the set-up was more balanced than it's being given credit for, I agree... but the proof's in the pudding. If people actively exploit the flaws in the set-up, it doesn't matter how good it could be in theory.

[-A-]

All town games won by roleclaiming should be asterisked. It's lazy, cheap, and terrible. In a game like Cartoon All-stars, where there are only so many roles, safeclaims are a necessity. Either that, or make the game smaller.

On the other hand, if you come up with an effective roleclaim yourself as mafia, you should get a pat on the back.

But I think setting up a good dynamic to prevent roleclaiming from ruining games should be the responsibility of the game runner. I think Jam does a good job when he runs his WWE games. He leaves out some big roles on purpose and left it up to the mafia to discover who they could effectively claim. Now, Sousa went one step further and gave everybody safeclaims. That might have given scum an edge IMO.

I think that game balance in general should be looked at. There was talk of putting a section on Game Design in the Resource thread which I think should be a collaborative effort. Roleclaiming is only one of the many factors that leads to games being unbalanced and that's the bigger issue. IMO Fallout was equally as unbalanced as Cartoon Mafia. I believe the mafia might have won 10% of the time at most in Cartoon Mafia (remember, they had a safeclaim and a ludicrous triple vote-control/muting,) just as the cult would win 90% of the time in Fallout. No one kind of unbalance is worse than the other.

[-A-]

How can you say "taking away the roles" when pretty much the entire game was either people claiming, people being asked to claim or people refusing to claim? If you're arguing the set-up was more balanced than it's being given credit for, I agree... but the proof's in the pudding. If people actively exploit the flaws in the set-up, it doesn't matter how good it could be in theory.

I'm saying that naiwf's claim that the mafia would definitely have won apart from roleclaiming isn't true, because the inclusion of roles actually saved him at one point. If it had been an unthemed game with no roles but abilities (as is pretty normal) then naiwf would have been lynched. The fact that Ace got an inconclusive result at all is baffling. naiwf said he was vanilla, he wasn't - lie. That should be the end of it. If you don't like Lie Detectors or you don't like abilities in general, then you play in really basic Traditional games only.

EDIT: Oh wait, now I see what you mean about 'taking away the roles.' I meant that if you ran this game again with exactly the same combination of abilities, the same make-up of town/scum etc. but with no roles, then the set-up would be balanced. It had the right proportion of scum and a good balance of abilities (excepting the fact that GoGo should have been limited to using one vote-control a day.)

Edited April 14, 2009 by -A-

[Sousa]

I think that to see perfect game balance in action, one need only check out Essa's Movie Monster Mafia, which featured a major power role on either side along with plenty of safeclaims to go around. I wasn't crazy about the presence of the double-voter and the mayor, since I think roles in which the GM essentially confirms a player as town should be few and far between, but Essa did an excellent job overall balancing things out and forcing all sides to actually play the game instead of claiming their way through it.

[C-MIL]

It was a 25 player game and I can list, with relative certainty in each case, every single player's role and in most cases ability, including about ten still living players... and it's not even technically over yet. That's just too damn much information coming out any way you slice it. The thing reads like a 48-page post-game summary. Balanced? Unbalanced? Fair? Unfair? In the end, only one question matters above them all... was it fun?

Yes, one kind of unbalance is worse than another... the one that infringes on the enjoyability of the game.

[-A-]

What's information got to do with it? You can have the most perfect set-up in history but if people decide to claim their powers then they'll do it. I don't see how people revealing information has anything to do with balance at all. And the fact that we know everyone's roles is particularly irrelevant since I specifically said with no roles. Abilities, no role titles. Just like Plubby's mafia, for example (or any TradMaf game.)

Any kind of unbalance makes the game less fun. If all you want to talk about is 'fun or not' then that's fine, but there are absolutely loads of other things to talk about.

[C-MIL]

Because, again, a balanced set-up means dick if the players choose to play as they did in this game. Maxx wasn't the one that unbalanced things. The players were and not all of them.

If all you want to talk about is 'fun or not' then that's fine, but there are absolutely loads of other things to talk about.

If there's something you're looking to get out of this whole thing beyond having a good time, I'm really curious as to what it could be. If "fun or not" isn't the beginning and end of the discussion, then... what the hell is?

[-A-]

Well by that logic why even talk about whether something's fun when we could be having actual fun instead?

[C-MIL]

Quite possibly the most sensible thing I've ever seen you post.

[Matt]

Because, again, a balanced set-up means dick if the players choose to play as they did in this game. Maxx wasn't the one that unbalanced things. The players were and not all of them.

If all you want to talk about is 'fun or not' then that's fine, but there are absolutely loads of other things to talk about.

If there's something you're looking to get out of this whole thing beyond having a good time, I'm really curious as to what it could be. If "fun or not" isn't the beginning and end of the discussion, then... what the hell is?

MAFIA ISN'T FUN! IT'S SRS BZNS