The Mafia Discussion Thread

[Ruki]

Bye Plubby.

[oldskool]

you are just acting like I didn't have the right and I've explained everything perfectly well imo.

We seem to have a conflict on defining "spirit of game" vs. "rules of game".

Is it in the "spirit of the game" to have players discussing game tactics amongst one another? Yes it is. But it's against the rules to do so via PMs if you aren't in a group that has permission to do so. Is it in the "spirit of the game" to try to draw out the people you want to eliminate, regardless of what side you're on? Yes it is. If you break the rules to do so, that changes things.

We all agree what Ruki did violated the "unwritten rule", we all concede you had no alternative but to do what you did after the situation arose.

My only issue with you is that you made a poor assumption that everyone would come to the same conclusion regarding interpretation of rules you hadn't notified us of. You made a point to notify us that the rules were different for this game and you made another point to make those rule changes bold; how were we supposed to know you missed one? I sure as hell didn't know it.

My issue with the rest of you is giving Ruki shit for it. If he did it with the intent of breaking the game it wasn't against the posted rules at the time, so how was he to know (like I said, I had no idea myself, and I play a shitton of mafia games); and if he did so accidentally/as an intended joke, it stands as a pretty piss-poor reason to give somebody shit & ban them from your games.

[Plubby]

This isn't a court of law, he doesn't need to justify anything. People are entitled to an anyone from their games at any time for any reason. So your point is for naught in the end.

[oldskool]

I didn't say they don't have a right, I said it's a dumb thing to do and I'm against anybody choosing to partake of it. Whether they were legit long-term commitments to bannings, or heat-of-the-moment threats that'll blow over in due time, I don't know.

[Plubby]

I gave one of those spur of the moment bannings to Norro like a year and a half ago

[The Mask of Norro]

I gave one of those spur of the moment bannings to Norro like a year and a half ago

Do what? Wait, now I'm confused. How the hell did you ever ban me from your games? Did I ever even... did I ever even make an attempt to join any of your games in the past year and a half? I don't even recall you having any >_>

Well except for DCDM but you get the point.

Wait and I was a part of Return to the Golden City as well (I think that was within a year and a half ago even though it feels like longer). Okay so now I'm legit confused because I didn't even try to join Transformers Mafia. What games are we talking about here, Plubs? >_>

Edited December 11, 2008 by The Mask of Norro

[D-Day]

First Diary Cube Mafia, and now Devils Rejects ... note to self (and all other mafia players), be suspicious of the first person (and all who follow) to claim investigator unless they have a nice juicy scum lead for you. And if they do have the scum lead, continue to suspect them.

[-A-]

Although Norro was actually a genuine townie investigator for the first portion of that game. I heartily agree that we need to bear in mind that mafia investigators are possible (particularly because they're cropping up more often recently) but they're still a relatively rare occurrence, with good reason. They're useful to include simply because they stop the town having something they can rely on, but they can lead to a massive power imbalance. In Devil's Rejects, we had an unbelievable amount of information. We could simultaneously knock off the best players and investigate to find people with suspicious role titles.

The other thing to note about the Diary Cube and Devil's Rejects games is that the town seemed to totally capitulate towards the end, which was at least as important as unjustified trust in an investigator. Even if you have every reason to trust the investigator, you can still discuss and examine possibilities. In Diary Cube Mafia, nobody apart from the cultists seemed bothered about explaining FD's immunity to death. Everyone was happy to go with the leads we provided and didn't really address the big issue that could've sunk us. In Devil's Rejects, the game did seem to settle in to the pattern of 'wait and see what RW has to say and then add an addendum that we don't trust him.' Well, he ran that game and no amount of apparent distrust changed that.

[The Mask of Norro]

Yeah, always remember that anyone, no matter what role they have, can always be recruited into a cult if that game has a cult, and not all games take away the powers of the people recruited into the cult.

In DCDM, I was recruited, but kept my ability. Some other mafia games strip the ability away. I was fortunate, because that would have painted a huge bullseye on me for the town lynch had I lost my ability at that point.

[Plubby]

It would have been at some point in the last year and a half, because you called something I did retarded, and given my line of work I took offense to that particular word.

[The Mask of Norro]

It would have been at some point in the last year and a half, because you called something I did retarded, and given my line of work I took offense to that particular word.

Oh, oh that. No, no we resolved that, remember? It began and it ended practically in the same day

[TEOL]

you are just acting like I didn't have the right and I've explained everything perfectly well imo.

We seem to have a conflict on defining "spirit of game" vs. "rules of game".

Is it in the "spirit of the game" to have players discussing game tactics amongst one another? Yes it is. But it's against the rules to do so via PMs if you aren't in a group that has permission to do so. Is it in the "spirit of the game" to try to draw out the people you want to eliminate, regardless of what side you're on? Yes it is. If you break the rules to do so, that changes things.

We all agree what Ruki did violated the "unwritten rule", we all concede you had no alternative but to do what you did after the situation arose.

My only issue with you is that you made a poor assumption that everyone would come to the same conclusion regarding interpretation of rules you hadn't notified us of. You made a point to notify us that the rules were different for this game and you made another point to make those rule changes bold; how were we supposed to know you missed one? I sure as hell didn't know it.

My issue with the rest of you is giving Ruki shit for it. If he did it with the intent of breaking the game it wasn't against the posted rules at the time, so how was he to know (like I said, I had no idea myself, and I play a shitton of mafia games); and if he did so accidentally/as an intended joke, it stands as a pretty piss-poor reason to give somebody shit & ban them from your games.

That's pretty much the crucial part, as far as I'm concerned. You admit that I had no alternative than to do what I did as a result of the situation: that's why it's banned. If it's so obvious that I had to modkill Ruki for doing it, why isn't it obvious that it's illegal?

And stop calling it the 'unwritten rule'. As I've pointed out a million times now, it is very much a written rule. The fact that you don't want to follow it doesn't change that fact.

[-A-]

'Masons and Mafia' next TEOL? That's what I was planning before you brutally pre-empted me

[TEOL]

Right now I'm more trying to decide whether to put Ruki back in the game by kicking out oldskool.

[oldskool]

Point: You wouldn't have had to do what you did, because Ruki wouldn't have violated the rule, if you'd bothered to notify us of the rule in the first place, especially since you were already making changes to the ruleset.

It's the game runner's job to establish the rules in the game thread. It's not the playerbase's job to read your mind, join other mafia game forums and play a billion mafia game variants to be able to fully read & understand the rules of whatever game you're trying to run.

If it's so obvious that I had to modkill Ruki for doing it, why isn't it obvious that it's illegal?

Yeah it's obvious, now that a) somebody violated the rule, b) they were modkilled for it, c) the rule was cited by a player, d) the rule was explained out in brief, but enough to understand detail, and e) the rule was finally posted by the guy who should've put it in the first page to cut off any situation like this at the pass. Hell, you C&Ped it, you didn't even have to type it.

You have no one to blame for the entire situation but yourself.

[TEOL]

And now it's been resolved.

[FireDoughnut]

I hate how many games I've been scum in. It's getting ridiculous now.

[Ruki]

I hate how many games I've been scum in. It's getting ridiculous now.

[Guest Mr. Potato Head]

...fastest game ever. Seriously, not even 48 hours.

[TEOL]

Ain't over yet