The Mafia Discussion Thread

[theburninator77]

twas a mistake to make the role the way I did. It's only my second game, and my first with a SK. It's a good learning experience for me and now it's a mistake I'll never make again.

[Plubby]

From my own standpoint - I agree with burny in spirit, and I won't be doing that role again...but these kinds of roles were (and now are) being reacted to with outrage, and it really rubs me the wrong way. In order to be able to keep mafia fresh and interesting, game runners have to innovate roles and game mechanics. Sometimes they're going to be wrong. (Such as these kinds of roles, or Transformers Mafia where I tried to introduce a second night phase). Sure, it will occasionally rob players of wins that they otherwise would have had...but in the grand scheme of things - I don't think the game win count matters that much.

From a game runners perspective, I would rather get it wrong like I did in GCR, than churn out eight back-to-back mafias where the games were basically identical and learn nothing. I learnt more about how to create fresh and interesting mafia games with one bad role than I would have running a half-dozen WWE 19XX games, or whatever. Sometimes I get it really right, like the Chatterbox, Internet Geek or Life of the Schwiltz roles that I really love and use as often as possible.

Sure these are situations that suck, but I think the process does more for the greater good than it does harm to players' win/loss records...

[Sousa]

Right, which is why we're ripping on the game, not you.

[naiwf]

You have to be able to look at things from both sides and always plan for the "worst case scenario". If players put in 3 weeks to a month to play a game and then find out that one player killed 7-8 people at the same time and won because his win condition theoretically allowed him to do 8 days worth of night actions at once, they're going to be pissed. No one would ever allow a cop 6+ investigations at night or a doc to protect 6+ people so it shouldn't be possible for one guy to kill 6+ at once. I don't think anyone's expecting to lose a game to an indy with 9 players going into the night phase and the one scum group that's been discovered has an outed don and already lost 3 players.

[Sousa]

Shit, I for some reason have gotten a free pass for the ending of The Tick vs. The Mafia when the town was screwed over under similar circumstances (Mafia group had to survive to Day 7 to win and the town had already worked out who the scum were). So I sympathize. I'd sympathize a little bit more if you hadn't literally done the exact same thing that people already threw a fit about last time.

[Ruki]

Jesusmonkey!

[naiwf]

Jesusmonkey!

At least he lost. Friends mafia having almost as many scum as town is an example of a mechanic that was doomed to fail from the get go. It's great if you're on the side that is 90% of your way to a win before the game starts, but not so great if you're on the other side.

[Josh]

OK, I'm not an expert on You Pick games or anything but there was seriously EVER a lynch immune scum?

I'm tired, and my memory is fuzzy, but I think the answer is yes. I ran the first two games, and in the first I included the Queen Mother, who I think had the ability you describe. Not a great move, but that's old news. And weren't you in that same scum group as Donald Trump?

Shit, I for some reason have gotten a free pass for the ending of The Tick vs. The Mafia when the town was screwed over under similar circumstances (Mafia group had to survive to Day 7 to win and the town had already worked out who the scum were). So I sympathize. I'd sympathize a little bit more if you hadn't literally done the exact same thing that people already threw a fit about last time.

You did not get a free pass. I hated you then for that, and I hate you now.

Not really, but you see how you scum.

[The Mask of Norro]

The short form of everyone's tl;dr. ranting is this:

Everybody makes mistakes. Everybody has those days.

[Plubby]

The short form of everyone's tl;dr. ranting is this:

Everybody makes mistakes. Everybody has those days.

Holy fucking shit did someone divide by zero? No way did Norro just write that.

EDIT: Wubs you really, Norro Scotterson.

[R.W.]

Basically the town killed all the scum, and the Serial Killer, but included in the game was the retarded Gatekeeper role, where if the Gatekeeper is alive at endgame, everyone else dies and only he wins.

Which is a fine way to reward either side for doing everything they are supposed to do to win the game.

*sigh*

I've already admitted responsibility for making an overpowered role. People need to admit that they made a bungle in falling for MEG (of all people) saying "I'm indi, but I'm on your side!" (which should never, ever be allowed to pass unchecked) and then not lynching a non-town player they'd had served to them on a platter. That game was winnable for the town, but they lynched players in the wrong order.

But this is also the reason no-one trusts survivor indies anymore

Mafia, for a town, shouldn't be about lynching all the scum in the right order - it should just be about lynching scum. Like naiwf said, if people put time and effort into a game, only to have it wasted by a game mechanic that's fatally flawed (like Friends or Marvel Civil War), or a role that no-one can expect (Indy that kills everyone left at endgame), then you are going to get a lot of pissed-off people.

burny, the thing that strikes me as odd about the whole thing is you are clearly aware of GCR and the backlash that came with it - I'm surprised you'd include the same role? And make it NK proof?

[Jimmy]

If it is true, I know he was probably out of line, but really, to suspend the guy indefinitely seems way too severe. Honestly, with the way TNA has mishandled Joe over the years, I'd rather see him leave and go to WWE or another promotion.

To be honest, indefinitely in TNA usually means "whenever we decide to bring you back" and that will probably be BY September, the latest. I really don't think they will leave him out of the Bound For Glory build. Indefinitely could mean anything between a slap on the wrist and Joe not working a match in the company for the rest of his contract. I certainly believe it's the former. Nothing in the rumors or actual business sense says otherwise.

As far as if I would like to see him anywhere else, ROH would probably book him better but they can't afford him. TNA is paying him several times the amount ROH would pay their highest paid guy. Joe would be stupid to leave TNA for ROH, no matter how terrible they are booking him,and he has won every match since his return in April besides a few exceptions, one of them was RVD and another was a draw against Hardy, his last on TV, so I really don't think Joe will leave because TNA is booking him badly, because as of now, he is being booked quite well.

As far as WWE is concerned, the grass may look greener on the other side for Joe but there is absolutely nothing in history to convince me they would book him like Samoa Joe needs to be booked. They have always buried anybody they haven't made and or made them look like a joke, sometimes on purpose it seems. Christian has been back there for 18 months now yes, he won the ECW title but it's not a real world championship and it was given to Tommy Dreamer 13 months ago. If Christian is being punished for going to TNA (and being completely professional about it) how will a TNA star, Samoa Joe, be treated? How well will everybody think Samoa Joe is being booked in WWE when he is sharing victories with Jack Swagger, John Morrison, R-Truth or Drew McIntyre years from now (when he finally makes it into WWE and is booked on that level)? If Joe was able to leave even now, he will not be a REAL World Champion before 2014, when he is 35 years old, 2 years older than John Cena is today, IMO. I will completely admit I am wrong on that prediction if it comes to pass but I don't think it will.

Makes me glad that I put zero effort into the game, it obviously didn't deserve any.

Split, I'll play Alias if you really need another player, but I know nothing of the show, except that I didn't care for it.

Yeah, that'd be awesome DMN.

Which brings me to my last 'hurrah'. I need two more players before I can start. Or I'm going to have to cut a few roles.

[SeanDMan]

I agree, TNA made Christian.

[Jimmy]

Fuck The Tick Mafia and me targetting the friggin' bomb.

[TEOL]

OK, I'm not an expert on You Pick games or anything but there was seriously EVER a lynch immune scum?

I'm tired, and my memory is fuzzy, but I think the answer is yes. I ran the first two games, and in the first I included the Queen Mother, who I think had the ability you describe. Not a great move, but that's old news. And weren't you in that same scum group as Donald Trump?

My memory's fuzzy too

As far as this whole debate goes, the simple fact is anyone should be able to look at a role like the one Norro had and figure out that it's overpowered. Burny should perhaps be let off because he's inexperienced as a game runner, but this goes right back to what I said was wrong with EWB Mafia which is that too many people consider roles that fit the theme or 'just give everyone an ability so they don't get bored' far more important than actually looking to see whether the roles are balanced against one another. If you're not going to put the basic amount of time and effort in to try and guess the likely consequences of creating such a role, you shouldn't be running games. And no, Plubby, 'I was just experimenting' is not a valid excuse. It is when the likely consequences, the worst case scenario as naiwf put it, is unclear, but that wasn't the case. Any role that has the possibility of wiping out twenty players by itself is obviously overpowered and shouldn't be being used by anyone ever. Innovation isn't the same thing as throwing shit against a wall to see if it sticks.

[Noah]

Personally I don't believe in straight up vanilla roles.

Granted I do believe in balance and wont go crazy with the powers but you'd be pretty much guaranteed to have at least something, in one of my games.

[Noah]

Actually I tell a lie.

In my original draft for Special 1 tv mafia, there was a number of vanilla scum goons and some of the townies had such lame 'power' roles, that you may as well have considered them vanilla. Oh and I also cut mason townie roles that had no powers(still talking to someone outside the thread can be helpful sometimes).

[TEOL]

The greatest game I ever ran was the one where everyone had an ability that didn't work.

[Guest Mr. Potato Head]

Part of the problem is that EWB towns now have a mentality where "if he's vanilla, he's not a big loss" and lynch vanilla townies because they might be lying about being vanilla. Just another reason why ROLECLAIMING KILLS.

Also I'm still pissed over The Tick vs. The Mafia because I wrongly assumed I was capable of counting to seven.

[SeanDMan]

Part of the other problem is that EWB has a mentality of "Oh, I'm vanilla. I was hoping for a cool role" and then abandoning the game.