The Mafia Discussion Thread

[FireDoughnut]

It's going to win the next poll anyway...

[Matt]

I suppose... If it's on there, anyway.

[-A-]

But roleclaiming isn't the exclusive qualification for being Traditional. You Pick will be a proper clusterfuck of masses of nonsensical powers and total randomness, it's not Traditional at all.

EDIT: I literally think You Pick is the least Traditional game possible.

Edited February 11, 2009 by -A-

[Matt]

I suppose it's irrelevant since it'll win the poll quicker than it'll climb the list but I still think it'd be traditional - it's more of a variant than a themed game. If a game had a roleblocker, a doctor, a mayor, a jester, an SK, a vig, all different types of cops etc, etc, etc: it'd still be a traditional game in my book, just one with a lot of power roles that relied on a bit more luck than a normal game would.

I can see why you'd say YP isn't traditional but then surely dethy, kingmaker, assassins, etc: are also non-traditional

[-A-]

All of those games are Traditional because they're focused in-thread on the idea of 'spotting scum vs. avoiding suspicion.' Things are inverted in something like Assassins, but it's basically still a game of trying to analyse other people. The more abilities there are in play, the more complex the abilities are and the more storyline elements you introduce, the more the balance of the game tips away from the basic analysis. An important part of a Traditional game is knowing roughly what's happening, as well - they usually have an open set-up and that won't be the case in You Pick. The possibilities to meta-game by working out what other people will include makes it less Traditional as well. If you know that the mod is hand-picking roles then the game becomes less Traditional because you're analysing him, not the players. Here's a rough check list for what I think makes a Traditional game:

1) Generic role titles (though roleclaiming is part of Traditional Mafia – a doctor or investigator claim or counter-claim is one of the basic plays.)

2) Few abilities

3) What abilities there are are less complex.

4) No write-up clues.

5) No random elements (abilities with % chances, for example.)

6) Often has an open set-up.

7) Randomised roles

8) Limited opportunities to meta-game.

Edited February 11, 2009 by -A-

[Matt]

I wouldn't agree about open set ups, in fact, most work better as a closed set up but yeah I can see your point, I'd just disagree with it because the game doesn't simply rely on "well X Y and Z have major characters so they must be town, which means that 2 out of A B or C are scum" (with the only exception being that in an open set up like Newbie someone can claim doctor/cop).

[-A-]

Yeah, open set-up might have been a bit of an exaggeration. The point was - in Traditional games, you know roughly what you're dealing with and you're focused on the players, not the rules. Maybe there's one scum more or less, but you know the whole procedure in Kingmaker and you know there aren't extra powers. In Assassins, you know that all the guards know the King and the assassins don't. In Dethy, you know exactly what combo of investigators there are. In You Pick, you don't have a clue if there's one mafia or ten, a cult or not, or whether there's any kind of wacky ability. You're figuring out the structure as much as you're trying to work out who everyone is and you have to accept that there are loads of possibilities.

[Josh]

I think YouPick should be a traditional game, I mean, roleclaiming isn't going to be possible since the roles are entirely random. Just because it has power roles, doesn't mean it isn't traditional (I mean, Dethy is traditional and everyone in that game is a cop or scum).

Just for clarification, that bolded part isn't entirely true. Once someone claims, it's entirely possible for the player who suggested that role to confirm they're telling the truth.

However, it doesn't mean that person is cleared as town, just cleared as that role.

Also, I may be making the game fucked up enough where everything I've just said may not necessarily apply. Interpret that as you will.

[Plubby]

Return of the ma-...Calvinball...

[Josh]

Were you about to sing "Return of the Mack?"

[Plubby]

I was

[The Mask of Norro]

I don't know, actually. I assumed since Norro said I (as a player) couldn't be targeted by night actions I'd be safe, but I suppose I can't be sure.

All you Aussies are drug addicts

Serious, I need to start proof-reading.

I'll say

[-A-]

You're not even in that game, I don't know where that came from :/

[MalaCloudy Black]

Zan is so totally Norro's double account

[-A-]

I clearly have psychic powers

[SeanDMan]

Was -A- talking to Norro about the game outside the game thread?!?

MODKILL.

[-A-]

He's not in the game. What we say during our alone time is our business.

[The Mask of Norro]

... my God, I've apparently bedded half of the populace of the Game Cube and they all think we're exclusive.

Listen, uh, everyone... I like you and all, I really do, but uh... you know these are just cheap flings, right? I mean-- wait! I meant, they meant something to me, but... I'm not looking for a committed relationship right now! Yes, yes... that's right.

So, uh, make-up sex?

[-A-]

I was only using you to get to Zan.

[The Mask of Norro]

Well that's okay, actually. Apparently I have a harem of men on EWB.