Man United Thread

[TMM]

Just so ya know; Man Utd's, Charlton, Arsenal's and (soon) Chelsea's youth academies are all awesome. They've got good facilities, and (dunno about the others) Arsenal have some great coaches to help the kids through.

Seriously, it's not the fault of the teams if the kids comnig through aren't up to the standard. While I do think Wenger should give some of the young English guys a chance every once in a while (Hoyte specifically, and Bentley next season) there are no players in our youth set-up who scream out "I'm class, let me play.

Thing is, Bentley WILL be a class act. I guarantee it because he has the abilites. And if you notice, who does he remind you of? Dennis Bergkamp. If it wasn't for Dennis, Bentley would probably be just another kid and, by now, would probably be playing for some League Two/One club.

Point is, in then long run foreign players are a good thing. Because of the change in rules, you're never going to get another Tony Adams or Steve Bould type of brick-wall defender because they way they played isn't allowed anymore. A more international way of playing is gonna have to be adapted by English clubs and their academy's so long as that idiot Sepp Blatter is in charge of FIFA (or UEFA, whatever it is) and is making the rules.

Fact is, nobody wants to see "typical English players" anymore. They're far to accustomed to seeing players like Ronaldinho and Bergkamp. So the best way for English players to compete is to learn from the best players at the club and learn their style of play because, quite frankly, there are very few English players that measure up to foreign players nowadays.

[FLiam]

This non homegrown player thing is bullshit.

Yes we have plenty of English talent coming through and already in the squad, Campbell, Cole, Hoyte and Bentley are all basically in the squad and then there is Ryan Smith.

There have been players that have left, I mean we had Jeffers, Wright and Upson all most famously. Jeffers can't even get into Everton/Charlton's first team, why would he play for us, same goes for Wright. As for Upson, he is playing for a very average Birmingham team.

Our reserves have talent, but none imo are good enough for us mostly. Hardly any have come through that are good enough and most end up playing for some 2nd division side because they just arent good enough.

One of the only people I can remember coming out of our youth system and being good is Cole and Sidwell and that is about it, Wenger gives these kids a chance but hardly any are good enough for us, look at Thomas.

People have to realise that English footballers are not as good as Brazilians, French and Spanish players and that most will have to move on.

Now, this sounds to me like a bit of a rant but never mind.

My point is, w ehave English players in our squad, just they were all out injured. And in my opinion, you cannot be a great team if you shove English players who clearly aren't good enough like Ryan Garry or a John Spicer in place of a Gael Clichy or a Cesc Fabregas.

FIFA and UEFA are supposed to be cracking down on racism, surely it is being racist saying we should kick out all the foreigners out of our side because the media all want English players, fuck that.

Oh yeh, found something, this from David Gold the Birmingham chairman and how right is he.

Arsène Wenger has started a heated debate by becoming the first manager to send out a 16-man first-team squad that did not include an English-born player for a Premiership game.

And in doing so he appears to be in danger of becoming a scapegoat for England's international failure to win a major trophy for more than 40 years. To me, that accusation is unfair.

The man has been given a job by the Arsenal directors, a body that includes David Dein, to produce the best team he possibly can. It is not his responsibility to win the World Cup for England - that belongs to the Football Association in Soho Square.

True, he is there to help us win trophies, not England.

Edited February 17, 2005 by Gooner4Life

[AJ]

I know it's not the clubs fault for the players not being good enough, but I think UEFA are pushing the clubs to make it their responsibility to help improve the facilities for developing young players.

I personally think it's for the better. That's maybe just me though.

[Guest Red Devil]

I don't really follow Arsenal that closely so i really don't know much about their youth academy but i feel that Wenger really doesn't give the English homegrown players as much of a chance as he does the foreigners. It may be becuase they're not that good but look at Matthew Upson, at Arsenal he was nothing more then a reserve defender but now he's playing well with Birmingham and if there wasn't such a strong set of centre backs for England he most certainly would be there or there abouts. Also IMO Upson would definatly get straight into the Arsenal team alongside Campbell as Cygan's a load of shit and Toure has got better but i don't really rate him. If Arsene gave him a chance then maybe he would be playing for Arsenal instead?

[Guest Pirate Chasin' Booty]

I don't really follow Arsenal that closely so i really don't know much about their youth academy but i feel that Wenger really doesn't give the English homegrown players as much of a chance as he does the foreigners. It may be becuase they're not that good but look at Matthew Upson, at Arsenal he was nothing more then a reserve defender but now he's playing well with Birmingham and if there wasn't such a strong set of centre backs for England he most certainly would be there or there abouts. Also IMO Upson would definatly get straight into the Arsenal team alongside Campbell as Cygan's a load of shit and Toure has got better but i don't really rate him. If Arsene gave him a chance then maybe he would be playing for Arsenal instead?

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[Guest Red Devil]

I said i don't know much about the Arsenal Youth system and franky i don't want to becuase if talent like Upson (Who IMO is better then Toure) can't get a fair chance to shine then where are all the English players suppoosed to be nurtured?

Go back a few years, David Beckham, Paul Scholes, Nicky Butt, Gary Neville, Phil Neville all came through Manchester United's youth team. If you look at the English team back then Beckham, Scholes and Gary Neville were certainties while Butt would most likely get in and Phil left on the bench. Now what if instead of trying to bring through that talent Fergie decided to keep Ince, Kanchelkis(Sp?) and the rest of the older players playing becuase they were doing well? England would be missing vital parts of their team becuase of it.

I'm just trying to say that Arsene Wenger does have a chance to bring through some talent but IMO he's too afraid of dropping his own "proven" talent to do so and that should be how it is but what happenes when your "proven" talent doesn't perform and the youngster's waiting for a chance (i.e Upson) get bored of waiting and leave? That leaves you with some "past it" players and the reserves who no one else wanted.

Let me pose this question to you, when and who was the last player to come through the Arsenal Youth Team? I'm trying to think up of some players and truthfully can't, The Arsenal First team only has 2 English players that are regulars and that's Ashley Cole and Sol Campbell. Campbell came from Spurs so that only leaves Cole whose been playing for Arsenal for a few years now. In that amount of time if Arsenal (i may be missing some players so hopefully you can correct me) have only had ONE player nurtured through their own homegrown youth team then that's just sad.

[TMM]

Upson didn't come through our youth academy, he bought him from Luton.

And I've paid a hell of a lot of attention to our academy over the years and I can list the players that are Premiership quality that I can think of that we've had:

Steven Sidwell (now at Reading, wanted first-team football but wasn't good enough to get in our first-team or near our bench)

Ryan Garry (injured every five minutes, and is a left-back so he's screwed anyway)

Justin Hoyte (he's one who'll get into the team and make it, I have no doubt)

Ashley Cole (well, look at him now?)

Jerome Thomas (had some good qualities. Watching him down the left and Pennant down the right for the England U21's was amazing. Shame he wasn't good enough for our first-team or bench)

Ryan Smith (still young. Won't get in to our team yet but he can make it)

David Bentley (not all that impressive with Norwich, but he has the 'Bergkamp-esque' ability to make it with us)

Those players have the quality to make it in the Premiership, but only one of them has so far made the cut in the Arsenal first-team.

Why's that? Foreign players have proven themselves better. Perhaps if they got an extended run in the first-team, who knows? Maybe in time they would all have made it. But honestly, who is going to take a chance with a bunch of unknown youngsters who would need a while to get going when you've got proven players there who are on form?

[Guest Red Devil]

Yeah it's a hard decision to leave out your proven players and nurture the youngsters but look at it this way. It looks as though Arsenalare out of the title race, even Wenger himself admitted it so instead of having all your proven "players" there why not blood in some youngsters like Hoyte just to give them that first time experience without taking too much away from the team as a whole? I'm just saying that when you compare the adademy sides of Man Utd and Arsenal in the past United have always tried to bring players through the first team and unless they really didn't work out then they'd bring in the foreigners while it looks to me that Arsene doesn't give the youngsters a long enough chance to shine.

Now you've given me a list of the players thathave come through the Arsenal youth set up there are 3 players other then Cole who i think really should have got another look, well Hoyte will probably get another look and he looks like a really good player so hopefully he gets a run in the first team. Jermain Pennant and Jerome Thomas are two class players. I've seen Thomas play for Charlton and he really looks like a good player who is improving all the time becuase of first team football. Pennant is a rather uniqe player as he is very talented but outside football he really does sound like a dick so that's one's hard.

I'm all for playing your best 11 no matter what nationality they are but IMO i don't think Arsenal not Wenger but Arsenal as a whole don't really look to the youth set up as the future but try to bring in players from around the world to be the replacements. I just hope that there are only a few teams that do this becuase if we're not careful in 10 years time we may end up like Scotland.

[public enemy]

Great win for us yesterday, Everton away was always going to be a hard draw but United made it look easy. Nice to see Quentin Fortune in some form, a boost he really needed if he was to avoid being sold in the Summer. I thought the actions of the Everton fans was disapointing but then again, always to be expected; I hope the investigation the FA are launching hits the culprits hard.

Also in good news for United fans;

Shevchenko to miss Man Utd match

AC Milan striker Andriy Shevchenko will miss Wednesday's Champions League trip to Manchester United after fracturing a cheekbone and an eye socket.

Shevchenko left the pitch in the 11th minute of Milan's 1-0 win over Cagliari after clashing heads with a defender.

A statement on Milan's website said he would have an operation and was expected to be out for 10 to 12 days.

That means he is also likely to miss the Milan derby against rivals Internazionale next weekend.

[Guest Pirate Chasin' Booty]

Yeah it's a hard decision to leave out your proven players and nurture the youngsters but look at it this way. It looks as though Arsenalare out of the title race, even Wenger himself admitted it so instead of having all your proven "players" there why not blood in some youngsters like Hoyte just to give them that first time experience without taking too much away from the team as a whole? I'm just saying that when you compare the adademy sides of Man Utd and Arsenal in the past United have always tried to bring players through the first team and unless they really didn't work out then they'd bring in the foreigners while it looks to me that Arsene doesn't give the youngsters a long enough chance to shine.

Now  you've given me a list of the players thathave come through the Arsenal youth set up there are 3 players other then Cole who i think really should have got another look, well Hoyte will probably get another look and he looks like a really good player so hopefully he gets a run in the first team. Jermain Pennant and Jerome Thomas are two class players. I've seen Thomas play for Charlton and he really looks like a good player who is improving all the time becuase of first team football. Pennant is a rather uniqe player as he is very talented but outside football he really does sound like a dick so that's one's hard.

I'm all for playing your best 11 no matter what nationality they are but IMO i don't think Arsenal not Wenger but Arsenal as a whole don't really look to  the youth set up as the future but try to bring in players from around the world to be the replacements. I just hope that there are only a few teams that do this becuase if we're not careful in 10 years time we may end up like Scotland.

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[Liam]

I think its a typical case of Arsenal bias, but saying Upson is better than Toure isn't that big a stretch of the imagination like you make it out to be, mudda.

And even though he was a reserve player, do you remember the uproar from your fans when you let him go, because most of them believed he was good enough to be playing all along, and they saw it as Wenger selling a good young British talent?

[Guest Pirate Chasin' Booty]

He wanted first team football, he couldn't get it, he had to go, Upson isn't bitter about it, it was a disappointment and whilst it was possible that he'd one day be good enough, he wouldn't of been without that first team football that gave him experience at Birmingham.

I'm pretty much rejecting his opinions anyway, because his delivery is pretty feeble (making Thomas and Pennant sound like gods), Toure was one of last seasons most improved players, so not even rating him seems pretty suspect, sounds more like not wanting to rate him because he plays for a rival.

I just hate people jumping into discussions/debates without the research to back themselves up, he said at the start he had little idea about the Arsenal youth setup and then he bashes it, pretty dumb.

This is a Man Utd thread anyway, lets keep it that way.

[TMM]

I think its a typical case of Arsenal bias, but saying Upson is better than Toure isn't that big a stretch of the imagination like you make it out to be, mudda.

And even though he was a reserve player, do you remember the uproar from your fans when you let him go, because most of them believed he was good enough to be playing all along, and they saw it as Wenger selling a good young British talent?

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Yeah, there was a huge uproar and yeah he was selling a good young British talent, but the point is, it wasn't because he was an awesome defender, the greatest we had or anything. It was because we didn't have the back-up, and one day he might've been something special. Thing is, he isn't better than Toure and he isn't better than Campbell. He was great back-up, but at the stage he was at, not amazing as a starter.

Would I have liked him to stay? Yes.

Was I sad he left? Yes.

From his point of view, did it make sense to leave? Yes, and that's the point. He didn't have to go, and if he wanted to stay he could've but the point is Wenger never said "right, we don't want you". Birmingham came in with an offer, Upson was given the choice to stay and fight for a place or to move and get (pretty much) guarantee'd first-team action, so he left. I don't blame him for it, and it's understandable.

[Guest Red Devil]

Mudda, Your rejecting my opinions becuase my delivery was feeble? I didn't make Thomas and Pennant out to be gods, Thomas has been playing well for Charlton, have you even seen him play for them? Pennant is a good player with attitude problems, not a great or Awesome player but a good player, espessially not a "god".

Toure may be an improved player but from when i saw him first he was a shit player and now he is just a good player. I saw Upson play a few times for Arsenal and he was an average player and now IMO he's playing really well. Comparing both of them at the momment i belive Upson is a better player, not becuase he's Englsih or becuase he plays for a "rival club". Just becuase he is a better player.

On the youth system bit, i did say i didn't know much about it so i never bashed the system, someone posted a list of players that have come through that system and i just put my opinion on how good teh players were. I never judged the system at all, i just commented on Arsenal not giving the youngsters a fair chance which hasn't got anything to do with the Youth System.

It looks to me like you'll never accept my opinions becuase their Anti-Arsenal opinions and you don't want to accept them.

Anyway like you said this is a Man Utd thread so we may as well keep it like that.

[Guest Pirate Chasin' Booty]

Mudda, Your rejecting my opinions becuase my delivery was feeble? I didn't make Thomas and Pennant out to be gods, Thomas has been playing well for Charlton, have you even seen him play for them? Pennant is a good player with attitude problems, not a great or Awesome player but a good player, espessially not a "god".

Toure may be an improved player but from when i saw him first he was a shit player and now he is just a good player. I saw Upson play a few times for Arsenal and he was an average player and now IMO he's playing really well. Comparing both of them at the momment i belive Upson is a better player, not becuase he's Englsih or becuase he plays for a "rival club". Just becuase he is a better player.

On the youth system bit, i did say i didn't know much about it so i never bashed the system, someone posted a list of players that have come through that system and i just put my opinion on how good teh players were. I never judged the system at all, i just commented on Arsenal not giving the youngsters a fair chance which hasn't got anything to do with the Youth System.

It looks to me like you'll never accept my opinions becuase their Anti-Arsenal opinions and you don't want to accept them.

Anyway like you said this is a Man Utd thread so we may as well keep it like that.

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[Guest Red Devil]

I didn't state i have Anti-Arsenal opinions i just stated that this opinion is Anti-Arsenal and that's the reason your not even willing to listen to the arguement. My spelling has nothing to do with this discussion, i may spell the odd word wrong but it's not as horrendus as others. I don't think we'll ever agree so i think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Guest Pirate Chasin' Booty]

you'll never accept my opinions becuase their Anti-Arsenal opinions

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[Guest Red Devil]

That quote was about that certain topic which was anti-Arsenal becuase it was an opinion that was against Arsena. It doesn't mean that all my opinions are Anti-Arsenal, just that one.

On that article, it's ridicilous. It points out that Wenger bought a lot of English players, Wright, Jeffers, Pennant but it doesn't go into detail about how they were used. I've never said that the foriegners are shit player, only Toure I feel isn't a World Class Centre Back that Big Teams need to succeed and Arsenal are lucky they've got Campbell just like Man Utd are lucky they've got Rio becuase i don't rate Silvestre.

I could go on and on and then you could reply and go on and on but lets just leave this shit alone. It's old news now and nothing productive is going to come out of it.

Back to Man Utd. Out of the 4 strikers which do you think Fergie will put out against Milan on Wednesday?

I think Fergie will go for a 4-5-1 playing Rooney either down the left or just behind the striker with Ruud playing alone up front. He could also leave Ruud on the bench and let Rooney continue up front but i don't really see that happening?

[public enemy]

Van Nistelrooy has been named on the bench for tonight's match, with only one change from the side that beat Everton at the weekend. Giggs comes in for Phil Neville whilst surprisingly Wes Brown and to a lesser extent Quentin Fortune retain they're places.

United Squad: Carrol, Heinze, Ferdinand, Brown, G. Neville, Giggs, Fortune, Keane ©, Scholes, C. Ronaldo, Rooney.

[Asuka's Gonna Kill You]

Should be a good game tonight.

Does anyone think highly of Fortune here? I've always liked the guy and I still think he's improved so damn much. He's actually a little like Giggs in a way and I'm glad they didn't sell the guy. He's got some great pace and speed and seems to handle the ball pretty well. He seems to attack like Giggs too most of the time. So yeah I'm a big fan of the guy and just wondered what everyone else thought because I feel he's pretty underated.